Political & Elections

john doe · Guru

RE: Government Shutdown

winchester · Guru

From Why The Shutdown Is A Republican Victory in the Daily Beast

The promise of the Obama presidency was not merely that he’d bring Democrats back to power. It was that he’d usher in the first era of truly progressive public policy in decades. But the survival of Obamacare notwithstanding, Obama’s impending “victory” in the current standoff moves us further away from, not closer to, that goal.

winchester · Guru

Maybe if I start an investment thread the topic will be the shutdown?

smile

longprime · Guru

unfortunately I was fully invested during those two times. My 2008 lessons : purchase annuities, active trading accounts, cash hoard.

john doe · Guru

Unfortunately I've made my most amount of money during these one time events. I loaded up after the markets opened up after 9/11 and I loaded up in 2011 when the market dropped on this kind of nonsense. I did buy some more today but I'd like to buy some more before this is resolved. It will be resolved but I'm not confident before tomorrow night at best.

longprime · Guru

I along with many hedge funds would gain immensely if the market drops like that.

So you believe our Congress and President (any name) is dysfunctional and fail in finding a solution? I am not sure that is patriotic in one sense and in the other sense patriotic-Making Money. evileye

john doe · Guru

I along with many hedge funds would gain immensely if the market drops like that.

Razorsharp · Guru

I didn't agree with his logic. I don't see how anyone gains from such a drop in stocks. If the market drops by that amount, the dems would win immedately and get all the spending they asked for.

longprime · Guru

However, the TP's and their following Stupid Party, have used this threat and believe either the resulting default will damage the Presidency or not damage the financial markets.

-- Edited by longprime on Tuesday 15th of October 2013 12:43:12 PM

longprime · Guru

CNBC-Halftime Report, Bove said maybe DJ should drop 1000 pts now. Bove believes that market is signaling that Congressional impass and debt deadline is not a big deal. He gave the illustration of the Liquidity crisis of October 2008 where the Stupid Party refused in-mass to refuse TARP, and took a the market to dramatically fall to convince the Stupid Party.

I am coming to Bove's thinking.

-- Edited by longprime on Tuesday 15th of October 2013 09:31:38 AM

catahoula · Guru

Unintended consequences and all that, winchester.

The Houston Chronicle ran a nice little piece from the NYT about the crushing cost of inhalers for the asthmatics in the US and only at the very end did they let the reader in on why the cost has skyrocketed. Seems that, along with phasing out R-12, the Feds mandated a change in the aerosol propellant. New patents, more lawyers sucking deeply, etc., etc., etc.

Besides the news that our bureaucrats - in an effort to make Obamacare just as tidy and trim as SS and Medicare - have generated millions of words of regulations, Sen. Boxer has decided that "wife-beater" is the absolute best way to look at a conservative:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/10/14/sen_boxer_republicans_are_acting_like_domestic_abusers.html

(I can't recall whether she was one of the Krugman choir, back during the Giffords shooting, but I wouldn't be surprised.)

I'm beginning to feel like a dog with way too many names, all of them ugly.

-- Edited by catahoula on Monday 14th of October 2013 06:30:29 PM

winchester · Guru

Seems pathological... like the way drug addicts behave

Replace "seems" with "It is" and you're precisely correct.

Book: Pathological Altruism, by Barbara Oakley

Scientific Paper: Concepts and implications of altruism bias and pathological altruism, by the same author.

Quote from author, from here The Violence of the Lambs:
For my fellow liberals, empathy and caring for others have become a secular religion that is harmful; it can be used as a cover for nefarious, corrupt and self-serving action

First paragraph from a recent review, from here Pathological Altruism: The Road to Hell Really Is Often Paved With Good Intentions Argues New Study

In a remarkably interesting new paper, “Concepts and implications of altruism bias and pathological altruism,” in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Oakland University systems engineer Barbara Oakley argues that intentions to help people all too often hurt them. Unintended harm is the outcome of she what calls pathological altruism. She defines pathological altruism “as behavior in which attempts to promote the welfare of another, or others, results instead in harm that an external observer would conclude was reasonably foreseeable.” In her study Oakley explores the psychological and evolutionary underpinnings of empathy and altruism and how they can go wrong. It turns out that pathological altruism is a pervasive problem affecting public policy

Why it happens:
Moralities differ in the emphasis they place on at least six psychological evolutionary adaptations that helped make human civilization possible. These mechanisms are our tools of social perception and of both kinds of cognition (described by Daniel Kahneman in his book "Thinking, Fast and Slow.") The mechanisms are care (i.e., empathy)/harm, fairness/cheating, liberty (i.e., autonomy)/oppression, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, and sanctity/degradation. The first three are focused on mostly on the individual, the second two are focused on the community. The last one comes from the evolutionary adaptation of disgust, which primarily helped us to avoid threats to health such as rotting meat.

Liberal morality rests on the first three, and of those mostly the first one, "care." Liberalism, for all practical purposes has a laser-like, blinders-on, focus on "care" of the individual at any/all costs. Thus the ever increasing entitlement state, born of empathy and the best of intentions, but in the end an enabler for some of humankind's more self destructive behaviors on the part of individuals, and also destructive of the fabric of society as a whole, and in precisely those segments of society it sets out to protect.

(For the record, conservative morality rests on all six equally. Conservatism inherently appreciates the necessity for tradeoffs between caring for the individual and caring for the community as a whole, because, after all, a healthy community is a prerequisite for a healthy individual.)

The scientific data for the above is presented for popular audiences here:
The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, and most recently summarized for the academic and scientific community here: Moral Foundations Theory: The Pragmatic Validity of Moral Pluralism

-- Edited by winchester on Monday 14th of October 2013 08:48:54 AM

longprime · Guru

I think I first heard the term from Gov. Bobby Jindal, in the 2012 election aftermath, I think given at the RNC post election convention: [bullet point #4], http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/15/opinion/jindal-gop-election/index.html?hpt=op_t1

hope · Guru

Just imagine the Democrats being called the stupid party-- their refined sensibilities would cause them en masse to put down forever their poster pens.

catahoula · Guru

lp:

Reid, et al, are so intent on continuing to spend they'll harm their own friends and allies.

Seems pathological... like the way drug addicts behave.

longprime · Guru

Reid, Democrats, PBO see no reason to budge, negotiate. The matrix says that this is the best strategy. Since TP and Stupid Party made the Dare, Sen Reid and PBO simply called that Dare.

catahoula · Guru

Har... claim the context is something else if you want, but this is so illuminating as to the way Harry Reid thinks:

An unusual confrontation took place on the U.S. Capitol steps Wednesday when District Mayor Vincent C. Gray crashed a news conference held by Senate Democrats and asked Majority Leader Harry Reid to exempt the city from the ongoing shutdown.

“Sir, we are not a department of the government,” Gray told Reid moments after the mayor concluded his own press event about 50 yards from where Reid held one. “We’re simply trying to be able to spend our own money.”

“I’m on your side, don’t screw it up, okay? Don’t screw it up,” Reid (Nev.) told his fellow Democrat.

Local television reporters began shouting at Reid: “What does ‘don’t screw it up’ mean?”

Reid ignored the questions and walked away surrounded by aides and security guards, at one point telling reporters that “of course” he supports giving the District the budgetary flexibility needed to continue operating during the partial shutdown.

Seems the party of compassion has a slimy, egg-sucking weasel on point for it.

catahoula · Guru

Well, it wouldn't be negotiating so much, without a split congress.

If Pelosi was running the house, Obama could simply tell her, like he does his flunkie in the senate, what she wanted. Which would be exactly what the president wants, which is exactly what the man expects to get.

'Entitled' doesn't even begin to describe the man's attitude.

winchester · Guru

standoffs do not usually end well

They always seemed to work out OK for Walter White, aka Heisenberg.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I cannot recall whether each shutdown had a split Congress or not. When Gibgrich and Clinton butted heads, at least they talked every single day of the 1995-96 shutdown.

That is not happening with any frequency.

standoffs do not usually end well.

longprime · Guru

But with a split Congress?

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

If I am not mistaken, every federal shutdown in the last forty years, the President HAS negotiated.

The precedent would be that the President is not good at working with the other branches of government.

longprime · Guru

Lots of TP and washlets?

tampoons and towelettes for that crowd. evileye biggrin

longprime · Guru

I think PBO is not going to negotiate. He's not going to capitulate. He won't set a precedent for future Presidents. He is going to say to Congress, "If you play with fire, you had better have a plan to put it out. because for all you strict Constitutionalists, I don't control the either budget or control the purse strings-You do." As for Wall Street. "You're big boys. Act like it"

catahoula · Guru

I suspect I could, if I went and looked.

Lots of TP and washlets?

longprime · Guru

UB is my current site. Can you tell which are my posts? UB women are just plain mean to other women. I don't get it. But it's fun to read and give them a bit of calm reasoning. evileye

catahoula · Guru

Maybe redneck is what those mean girls over on UrbanBaby are looking for, lp. Can't hurt to give it a whirl, even if they don't understand it either.

Not "everyone" believes the spending can eventually be covered by: (A) Increased taxation, or (B) A robust economy. Some believe the two are mutually exclusive.

longprime · Guru

CNBC talking heads did a brief analysis on what can be negotiated. Essentially the numbers are going to Veterans, SS, ACA, Medicare. I will add that everyone and I mean Everyone knows this. However, to move the numbers on the Debt, tax reform must be present. The third is an improving economy where increased taxes and reduced unemployment payment actually do reduce the deficit. Likewise, everyone and I mean Everyone also know this.

Suppose PBO says that he will negotiate on whatever. Suppose he capitulates before the TP's; who is going to win and who is going to get the blame. ??

Eventually the Stupid Party will get the credit but I wouldn't want to be Stupid Party in the 2014 midterms.

longprime · Guru

Cat, your allegories and metaphors are making my head spin. evileye Mouth and ass together in the same post. EWWW doh

winchester · Guru

If the Tea Party is the problem then so is its manifesto, the Constitution.

If you understand one then you understand both, and the reverse is true too.

blankmind · Senior Member

If I had to label one party The Stupid Party, it would be the party that spends money to put barriers up at open air monuments and parks. It would be the party that tells Americans that they can't use part of the ocean. It would be the party that says: "Why would we want to do that?" when asked why the Senate wouldn't try to help "one child who has cancer" by approving a mini-spending bill.

I don't think it can get much more stupid than that, but I won't be surprised if it does.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I would probably identify myself right now with that Stupid Party than the Completely Idiotic Party, lp.

the Tea Party is not the problem. It might just be the only solution right now in Washington.

Let's shutdown government and see how ling it takes for both sides to start negotiating again. The environment in DC is toxic, and has been for a long time.

i think it is amusing to watch those government employees spending time trying to block off access to our open air memorials. It is actually taking more time and manpower during this shutdown to enlist employees to barricade those things that were never secure in the first place. In the process, this administration looks petty. Way more so than Congress.

I say dump everyone in 2014 and 2016. Trained monkeys could do a better job in Congress and Senate.

blankmind · Senior Member

Gee lp, I was going to respond to you, but I see you edited yourself, so, as Roseanne Roseannadanna would say... nevermind.

catahoula · Guru

There isn't a dirtier word in the capitol than 'tea party'... elsewhere too, depending on who you talk to. Karl Rove, for instance, isn't a fan and it's always kind of odd to hear the same things from your keyboard, lp, that are bubbling off his thick, Bush-electing lips.

Whatever. The fact not everyone is going to be your friend is something most people learn way back, but its a sad, sad, old day when the liberals and establishment republicans find common ground and it isn't because they finally realize their mouths have been writing checks their butt can't cash.

Nope, its because someone is pointing out they don't want to cosign on any more of the vote-buying orgy that passes for politics these days.

-- Edited by catahoula on Tuesday 8th of October 2013 01:56:48 PM

longprime · Guru

I'll get back to you after I walk the dog and make some apple pies (for my doctor, who is going to get on may case for making them).

catahoula · Guru

'scuse me, lp... I was talking about the great healer's 'public' image, not what he's wearing when he and the first lady are relaxing and lifting a glass to Bill Ayers. Sorry I was confusing.

That 'Stupid Party' thing isn't something you were wearing back in the day.

What's up with that?

catahoula · Guru

Obama's a moderate guy, lp. He's not gonna get any blame for this, now that he's thrown it over to the guy that weighs his politics with a big ol' thumb on the scale and can skate after that comment he made about not giving a rat's about a kid with cancer.

Harry's a gem, but I'm glad he ain't mine.

catahoula · Guru

I've about stopped paying any attention to that well-spoken gentleman from Nevada but: has he brought some sort of budget bill to the floor since this...?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/01/22/why-senate-democrats-havent-passed-a-budget/

If not, maybe Boehner just saying... "hey, that not voting thing's working pretty well for Harry!"

longprime · Guru

Boner is trying to prolong this unnecessarily. He want's to make PBO look worser, if possible. . If the House votes for a clean CR, the Boehner, Republicans and TP, lose. If the CR fails, PBO loses and must do some kind of negotiation, even though it won't mean much since any negotiated deal between the House R's and PBO must pass the Senate. I personally think we really could default Oct 17.

Did I say that I can save on the Silver Plan (only metal offered, 70/30). Saving $75/mn, 1/3 lower deductible, but 3x max annual OutofPocket The Silver plan: 70/30 $493/mn. 750 ded, $12500max when compared to OregonMedicalInsurancePool's: 2012's 80/20, $569/mn, $2500 deduct. $2500 max OoP. plan. I don't know what are the eligible credits, but probably very small since we are in retirement mode. Exact details of HI company's plans have not been posted.

john doe · Guru

Boner claims to not have the votes. I say vote and lets see if the votes are there or not.

longprime · Guru

Cat, I am surprised on how liberal you sound. On the other hand, I am kinda sympathetic towards the TP's . I'm not sure how I can ever forgive the Republicans for breaking the budget in BushII's first year and budgets thereafter, the two unwarranted tax cuts, and failure to heed the warnings from Clinton's team on terrorism. Iraq is a failure of Bush not the Stupid Party, althought they blindly followed. I hope TP's would go away but at the same time want the Stupid Party to pay attention to their original missions. The TPers hopefully taught the R's something. This is however not the time to default. ... Stupid Party evileye

-- Edited by longprime on Monday 7th of October 2013 05:52:14 PM

longprime · Guru

PBO is giving Boehner a way out or a chance to destroy him (PBO). Bring the Floor to the vote evileye .

I think that Boehner-Republicans don't have enough votes to defeat a clean CR, hence Boehner insists on "negotiation".

The market is being taking-down in an orderly manner. Thankyou, big boys.

geeps20 · Senior Member

john doe wrote:
"what bothers me is that a political comment by someone from the left does not result in an infraction. "

I haven't seen any preference by the moderators for one political persuasion vs another. So are you goldenpooch - geeps20

really?..how do you see who are getting the infractions?

No, I'm not GP

john doe · Guru

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101089459 - interesting

In time long ago (2008) on cc I railed against mini's view of the republican party that it was becoming the whig party. My view was that, after lost elections, parties tend to right themselves and that mini's view of the republican party was absurd. Unfortunately, mini was right and I was wrong.

john doe · Guru

"what bothers me is that a political comment by someone from the left does not result in an infraction. "

I haven't seen any preference by the moderators for one political persuasion vs another. So are you goldenpooch - geeps20

longprime · Guru

i guess MLH just didnt like me.

CC is very bland. MoveOn as to CCpolitical. evileye

geeps20 · Senior Member

what bothers me is that a political comment by someone from the left does not result in an infraction. MaineLonghorn is out of control....they treat adults as children.
I'll be back, differnt IP, differnt name...Goldenpooch sounds like a reincarnation of someone...lol

Razorsharp · Guru

I'm watch fox new sunday and Chris Wallace is destroying Jack Lew about Obama's refusal to negotiate. I have to admire Lew for being the only Obama admin person with the balls to go on Fox News.

It's very simple, the Pres won't negotiate as long as he is winning and he is winning big time.

longprime · Guru

Non-Negotiator In Charge

Razor's infraction wording.

Well it is the truth. PBO has the trump cards. Even if he did negotiate, it doesn't mean the Senate Dems and Indys will cave and probably won't because they need to get re-elected.

longprime · Guru

Sure would like more input from you Razor.

Iwas trying to see what type of post you made to get yourself in trouble. Noticed that Dstark just sign in and out.