Political & Elections

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

RE: Trayvon

hope · Guru

Nope, never. That's a MommyParty (liberal) thing.

Reason why there are no liberals here...no one to run to. smile

catahoula · Guru

No editorial comments, just a simple poll question:

Did any of you ever file a complaint? Not about moderation dropping on your own head (know there was plenty of that) but about poster comments you found offensive enough to ask for intervention?

Razorsharp · Guru

It's really annoying that they shut down the two threads I started. The comments in the second one were not that personal of attacks. Maybe one or two people were a little testy but overall everyone was behaving nicely.

hope · Guru

Oh, oh. Another Florida v. Zimmerman thread shut down, due to "complaint reports."

Not by the CC PC Police by any chance?

biggrin

winchester · Guru

I witnessed a shooting at a community rec center in Germantown, MD. Suburban Washington, D.C. Bedroom community. Townhouses. Single family homes. Grass, trees, shopping centers. Afternoon of a summer day. Lots of kids out on the fields. Summer camp. Soccer practice. Small group of about four kids on the other side of the field apparently talking. Suddenly they're all scattering, running. Five or six shots. One kid goes down. Shot in the butt. apparently with a 22.

Good thing the kids ran away from the rec center rather than toward it, or the shots that missed might have gone into the crowd of kids and parents.

Cop commented, "Welcome to Germantown."

hope · Guru

So both father and brother when first played the tape of screaming didn't think it was /wasn't sure it was, Trayvon.

Expert testified previously that the only people, IF any, who could *possibly* tell if someone is screaming for their life are loved ones.

How could anyone vote for murder 2 with that testimony alone? Add to that GZ's injuries-- can't convict, period. Enough reasonable doubt to sink a ship.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Oakland is a special place.

Last time I was there I heard a shooting near the athletic facilities where my kid was having a tournament.

Just another normal day in Oakland.

Razorsharp · Guru

Anyone remember the resolution of the Oakland School Board? I was in shock.

linguistlist.org/topics/ebonics/ebonics-res1.html

hope · Guru

This might help, longprime.

Other linguists are drawn to the similarities between Ebonics and Caribbean Creole English varieties, for instance, the fact that both frequently drop is and are , and that both permit dropping word initial d, b, and g in tense-aspect markers (Caribbean examples include habitual/progressive (d)a, past tense (b)en, and future (g)on). These traits suggest that some varieties of American Ebonics might have undergone the kinds of simplifi- cation and mixture associated with Creole forma- tion in the Caribbean and elsewhere. They might also suggest that American Ebonics was shaped by the high proportions of Creole-speaking slaves that were imported from the Caribbean in the earliest settlement periods of the thirteen original colonies.

Arguments about and evidence on the origins issue continue to be brought forth. A relatively new ‘his- torical’ issue has emerged in recent years: Is Ebonics converging with or diverging from other vernacular varieties of American English? One thing is for sure: This dynamic, distinctive variety—thor- oughly intertwined with African American history and linked in many ways with African American literature, education, and social life—is one of the most extensively studied and discussed varieties of American English, and it will probably continue to be so for many years to come.

Further reading

Baugh, John. 2000. Beyond Ebonics: Linguistic pride and racial prejudice. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Green, Lisa. 2002. African American English: A linguis- tic introduction. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Labov, William. 1973. Language in the inner city: Studies in the Black English Vernacular. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press.

Poplack, Shana, ed. 2000. The English history of African American English. Malden, MA, and Oxford, UK: Blackwell.

Rickford, John R. , and Russell J. Rickford. 2000. Spoken Soul: The story of Black English. New York: John Wiley.

Smitherman, Geneva. 2000. Black talk: Words and phrases from the hood to the amen corner. New York: Houghton Mifflin.

Wolfram, Walt, and Erik R. Thomas. 2002. The develop- ment of African American English. Malden, MA, and Oxford, UK: Blackwell.

At its most literal level, Ebonics simply means ‘black speech’ (a blend of the words ebony ‘black’ and phonics ‘sounds’). The term was created in 1973 by a group of black scholars who disliked the negative connotations of terms like ‘Nonstandard Negro English’ that had been coined in the 1960s when the first modern large-scale linguistic studies of African American speech-communities began. However, the term Ebonics never caught on among linguists, much less among the general public. That all changed with the ‘Ebonics’ controversy of December 1996 when the Oakland (CA) School Board recognized it as the ‘pri- mary’ language of its majority African American stu- dents and resolved to take it into account in teaching them standard or academic English.

Most linguists refer to the distinctive speech of African Americans as ‘Black English’ or African American English (AAE) or, if they want to emphasize that this doesn’t include the standard English usage of African Americans, as ‘African American Vernacular English’ (AAVE). In theory, scholars who prefer the term Ebonics (or alternatives like African American language) wish to highlight the African roots of African American speech and its connections with languages spoken elsewhere in the Black Diaspora, e.g. Jamaica or Nigeria. But in practice, AAVE and Ebonics essentially refer to the same sets of speech forms. Here, we will use ‘Ebonics’ without ideological or theoretical qualification, prefer- ring it to AAVE and other alternatives simply because it is the most widely-known public term right now.

What does Ebonics sound like?

To many people, the first examples that come to mind are slang words like phat ‘excellent’ and bling-bling ‘glittery, expensive jewelry’, words that are popular among teenagers and young adults, especially rap and hip hop fans. But words like kitchen ‘the especially kinky hair at the nape of one’s neck’ and ashy ‘the whitish appearance of black skin when dry, as in winter’ are even more interesting. Unlike many slang terms, these ‘black’ words have been around for ages, they are not restricted to particular regions or age groups, and they are virtually unknown (in their ‘black’ meanings) outside the African American community.

Ebonics pronunciation includes features like the omission of the final consonant in words like ‘past’ (pas’ ) and ‘hand’ (han’), the pronunciation of the th in ‘bath’ as t (bat) or f (baf), and the pronunciation of the vowel in words like ‘my’ and ‘ride’ as a long ah (mah, rahd). Some of these occur in vernacular white English, too, especially in the South, but in general they occur more frequently in Ebonics. Some Ebonics pronunciations are more unique, for instance, drop- ping b, d, or g at the beginning of auxiliary verbs like ‘don’t’ and ‘gonna’, yielding Ah ‘on know for “I don’t know” and ama do it for “I’m going to do it.”

What does Ebonics look like?

These distinctive Ebonics pronunciations are all sys- tematic, the result of regular rules and restrictions; they are not random ‘errors’—and this is equally true of Ebonics grammar. For instance, Ebonics speakers regularly produce sentences without present tense is and are, as in “John trippin” or “They allright”. But they don’t omit present tense am. Instead of the ungrammatical *“Ah walkin”, Ebonics speakers would say *“Ahm walkin.” Likewise, they do not omit is and are if they come at the end of a sentence—“That’s what he/they” is ungrammatical. Many members of the public seem to have heard, too, that Ebonics speakers use an ‘invariant’ be in their speech (as in “They be goin to school every day”); however, this be is not simply equivalent to is or are. Invariant be refers to actions that occur regularly or habitually rather than on just one occasion.

What do people think of Ebonics?

That depends on whom you ask. Black writers from Paul Laurence Dunbar to Zora Neale Hurston to August Wilson have made extensive use of it in their work, and some, like James Baldwin (“this passion, this skill, ... this incredible music.”), Toni Morrison, and June Jordan have praised it explicitly. Black preach- ers and comedians and singers, especially rappers, also use it for dramatic or realistic effect. But many other people, black and white, regard it as a sign of limited education or sophistication, as a legacy of slav- ery or an impediment to socioeconomic mobility.

Some deny its existence (like the black Chicagoan whose words “Ain’t nobody here talkin’ no Ebonics” belied his claim). Others deprecate it (like Maya Angelou, who found the Oakland School Board’s 1996 Ebonics resolutions “very threatening” although she uses Ebonics herself in her poems, e.g. “The Pusher”).

It should be said, incidentally, that at least some of the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the Oakland resolutions arose because the resolutions were misin- terpreted as proposals to teach Ebonics itself, or to teach in Ebonics, rather than as proposals to respect and take it into account while teaching standard English. The method of studying language known as ‘contrastive analysis’ involves drawing students’ attention to similarities and differences between Ebonics and Standard English. Since the 1960s, it has been used successfully to boost Ebonics speakers’ reading and writing performance in Standard English, most recently in public schools in DeKalb County, GA, and in Los Angeles, CA (as part of the LA Unified School District’s Academic English Mastery Program).

Where did Ebonics come from?

On this point, linguists are quite divided. Some emphasize its English origins, pointing to the fact that most of the vocabulary of Ebonics is from English and that much of its pronunciation (e.g. pronouncing final th as f) and grammar (e.g. double negatives, “I don’t want none”) could have come from the nonstandard dialects of English indentured servants and other workers with whom African slaves interacted.

Others emphasize Ebonics’ African origins, noting that West African languages often lack th sounds and final consonant clusters (e.g. past), and that replacing or simplifying these occurs both in US Ebonics and in West African English varieties spoken in Nigeria and Ghana. Moreover, they argue that the distinction made between completed actions (“He done walked”) and habitual actions (“We be walkin”) in the Ebonics tense-aspect system reflects their prevalence in West African language systems and that this applies to other aspects of Ebonics sentence structure.

longprime · Guru

What snippets that I heard, I could understand. Perhaps because my family's mother tongue is not english. My writing probably reflects my heritage.

cbreeze · Veteran Member

I have yet to see a black talking head defend Zimmerman. Could they be blinded by race?

I saw on CNN, one anchor and the other a professor, both black men discussing Rachel Jantel's testimony. They somehow mentioned that both of them understood her "English" completely, it's cultural, it makes her real and makes her "honest".

Wow !!! Really??? CNN hires these men??

-- Edited by cbreeze on Friday 5th of July 2013 04:35:39 PM

longprime · Guru

The only threads that I follow on CC are the ones that deal with M-O-N-E-Y and the occasional, "I have a daughter" who's having boyfriend problems or lack of. evileye

hope · Guru

Yes it does, but the emotion is running a bit too high it seems to me.

One poster on CC simply stated "I hate George Zimmerman." No one challenged him-- pretty amazing. And they have no problem calling out anyone as racist who even dares to suggest we wait for the defense to present their case before we form an opinion. Wow.

Not to minimize the tragedy, but it does seem more than a little out of proportion, considering in places like Chicago kids are being slaughtered left and right.

longprime · Guru

TM's death, requires an accounting.

evileye

Razorsharp · Guru

Bill Cosby is right. But Martin's family made it a race issue by falsely alleging racism. It makes sense from there perspective since Zimmerman would not otherwise have been charged had they not played the race card.

Razorsharp · Guru

There are many talking heads wanting to speak on this trial. I have seen black and white talking heads taking Martin's position. I have yet to see a black talking head defend Zimmerman. Could they be blinded by race?

longprime · Guru

In what forms do you (generically) would want to see GZ defended?

Bill Cosby, soon after this incident, said that it wasn't about race but about, The Gun. Remember, Bill Cosby's own son was murdered on the freeway. for the car, by a white person.

-- Edited by longprime on Wednesday 3rd of July 2013 10:07:03 PM

hope · Guru

Yes, it is very sad. I should clarify it's the defense lawyers at work that are fun to watch--the not circumstances of the trial itself.

Razorsharp · Guru

longprime, from what I have seen of the defense witnesses they are exceptional. Only the knock knock joke was a mistake. These guys are the best lawyers I have seen on a TV case.

longprime · Guru

i only saw news snippets of opening statements.

Glad that GZ is getting his money's worth.

This is case is will have a sad outcome no matter what the verdict is. I don't like sad.

-- Edited by longprime on Tuesday 2nd of July 2013 10:51:34 AM

hope · Guru

Defense lawyers are very good. They have turned practically every prosecution witness into a win for GZ.

Lots of fun to watch.

-- Edited by hope on Monday 1st of July 2013 08:43:05 PM

longprime · Guru

I have not been following GZ on HLN or other news . What I do hear of this trial, only is during advertisements and boring news on CNBC. What I surmised in my brief HLN visits, is that both the prosecution and defense lawyers are not very good.

DS (28) was never taught cursive. His print writing is atrocious. One would think that someone in mechanical engineering and design apps. (he uses pen and paper) would have better penmanship. And we complained to his teachers. He's never going to write a love letter.

hope · Guru

To be fair to Rachel, she said she could not read cursive- she dictated her letter to a friend, who used cursive. The issue was not raised in court as to why she did not write (print) it herself.

hope · Guru

"It's the pro-GZ crowd who continually inject race into the issue - and complaining about Obama's statement - which did not raise race in any way - is part of that." -kluge, over there, good for a chuckle as always

All O said was " if I had a son he'd look like Trayvon."

No injecting race there. disbelief

catahoula · Guru

Can't recall where I read it but someone once remarked that Florida was unique in evolving straight from barbarism into some cheesy version of depravity. Not even the briefest moment of civilized society in between.

Ms. Jeantel's not without her defenders, god help us all.

longprime · Guru

[Hello, Razorsharp] evileye

longprime · Guru

Rachel = Bell Curve + local culture + environs + it's Florida.

Razorsharp · Guru

I thought Rachel Jantel was shocking. Given all of the special education money and remedial training available today, it is inexcusable for a 19 year old to be unable to read. She spoke in ebonics because that is her culture, but that does not excuse her being unable to read. I cannot image being a Miami public school administrator and hearing her testify.

hope · Guru

I have spent thirteen years subbing -- at least half of the time in a near all-black high school. She does not enforce stereotypes. She is representative of the urban public school systems I am familiar with.

There is no attempt to teach these kids correct grammar. None.

I used to get upset about this, but with relief I realized yesterday I must be nuts To think that way. Everything's cool.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Just to clarify - I know this young woman did not want to testify and it is a terrible situation she has been in - losing her friend, hearing of his death while she was on the phone. I also know that she reinforced stereotypes that aren't accurate for the vast majority of 19 year old kids in America.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

There are so many things wrong with this young lady's narrative, I do not know where to begin.

I do suspect that her third grade teacher is face palming right now - cursive was "taught" ten years ago, after all.

It is interesting how some folks view education and achievement, differently. It has little to do with race or ethnicity, either.

hope · Guru

Though I learned a lot about our brave new world the last two days of Rachel's testimony.

i learned that I should not feel responsible for failing Ms. Rachel for not having taught her to speak "correct" English. Indeed, there is no longer such a thing as correct English. There are only cultural differences,and all differences are not "less than."

No, Ms. Rachel was not insolent and disrespectful to Don West; she was simply expressing her frustration at having been forced into a situation in which she was uncomfortable; she is, after all, a "teenager." You know How they are. And they "mumble." Okay, I can't count the number of times I was told by colleges and health care professionals that at 18 my kid was an adult, but whatever. The days of thinking the same standards are applied to all are over.

I learned never to turn on CNN again. In their recap tonight, they explained that Creole was Ms. Rachel's first language, even though the defense brought out the fact that, though Rachel occasionally speaks Creole with her mother, her father speaks English exclusively, she attended English speaking schools since kindergarten, all her friends and teachers have always spoken English, and she herself stated she has no problem understanding English.

i learned once and for all not to feel bad for these kids whom in my misguided thought processes I thought we had failed to educate. No, they are fine. Never again will I view their culture through the lens of my white privilege. I'm a cracker, what do I know.

hope · Guru

One of the things about Obama is that he is just plain lucky.

I personally think that Sandy and that Christie hug contributed to turning the election around.

Now, instead of the "scandals," the nation is riveted to The trial.

Instead of Cspan, I'm glued to HLN.

sad but true. disbelief

catahoula · Guru

Defending the downtrodden gets to be more than a vocation and becomes more a way of life, a way of thinking. Plus, there were all the other red capes to your average liberal. Think of it: a somewhat white guy shoots a black kid, in a gated neighborhood, in a southern state, a state with a variation of those hated castle laws.

That Zimmerman wasn't a drunk redneck driving a pickup truck with a confederate battle flag in the window and an accomplice is about all that was lacking. Truth be told, it probably pisses them off they're having to do what they can with a bi-racial Barney Fife.

hope · Guru

There is no way of knowing for sure how this went down, at least not yet.

To call people in essence racist for holding out for a verdict beyond a reasonable doubt is harming, not helping, mend the divisions in the social fabric of our country, JMHO.

longprime · Guru

Is GZ a psycho? or just following economic logic than evidently concluded to its proper outcome.

And yes it is old and so predictable.

catahoula · Guru

Probably not as rarely as we both think, lp. Certain things tend to get discussed over and over.

Most of the indignant on CC can't look past their racism bias. Through that lens, Murder One with lethal injection might sound good to a few. Set a precedent for consequences when it comes to hassling the hoodie crowd.

I don't think what happened requires Zimmerman to have a racist bone in his body -- just a bunch of stupid ones. He was primed to do anyone that wasn't submissive, ethnicity not important.

hope · Guru

Don't think if a man came up to my son that day and "got in his space, " demanding to know what he was doing there he would have " thrown the first punch." Probably would have calmly explained why he was there.

longprime · Guru

Here's the issue, using a variation of SLS incident:

I, as a pretty clueless and naive guy, continues into the parking lot. The unknown guy approaches me and asks me what is my business here? I reply after some hesitation that "this is a parking lot, what do you do in a parking lot." The guy comes closer to within 3 feet of me and demands. "take me to your car". I say, "NO" . Guy makes a move to grab me but I am able to brush his hand away. What is the outcome....

The ultimate question will be, Why would GZ get so close to TM?; Especially when ZM had specific instructions by paid, professionals, to back off.

Every mother would recognize a bully to their son.

TM may have thrown the first punch but ...

longprime · Guru

Doesn't matter when the gun is revealed when you don't have a counterbalancing weapon. If some one is approaching you and asking you questions, you got to assume that they have more "fire" power than you do. If you run, you chance being shot-in-the-back and the shooter will say "why would an innocent person run" or if the accuser has no gun, you will deem yourself a coward forever.

So if you don't run, you could explain yourself out of the situation, get mugged (real possibility at night and in a neighborhood that has a history of breakins), fight yourself out. The scenarios are not attractive to TM if he doesn't run but only marginally better.

The attacker always has the advantage especially when he has probable weapons advantage, accept in the MAD scenario.

-- Edited by longprime on Wednesday 26th of June 2013 03:21:04 PM

hope · Guru

I just think it's worrisome when people disregard "innocent until proven guilty," which is so obviously being done in this case. The posters over at CC have already sentenced GZ.

Defense had a very good day yesterday, since by witness accounts he did not come off as a vigilante at all.

hope · Guru

GZ revealed he was armed before the fighting began? Not the sequence of events as far as I have heard. Do we know when the gun was revealed?

Your scenario really paints GZ as a psycho.

But as our friend kluge points out over there, it's impoasible to talk about this case without being accused of thinking Trayvon "deserved to be shot," or that he's a "big scary black guy."

It gets so old, and is so predictable.

-- Edited by hope on Wednesday 26th of June 2013 02:00:34 PM

-- Edited by hope on Wednesday 26th of June 2013 02:01:21 PM

longprime · Guru

you all know that I have an attitude. disbelief

TM, answers.

1. I'm visiting my father.

2. I'm leaving.

3. I'm going home.

4. I live here.

5. I just moved in.

6. I was visiting a friend.

7. What it's to you?

8. Why do you want to know?

9. My GF lives here

10. I'm lost.

etc.

Whatever. No matter what and how TM replied, or even if TM decided to run, Once a gun was revealed, TM had no choice but to fight.

Likewise, GM, by virtue of being a neighborhood watch guy, made the decision to confront TM. And the final outcome was cast because TM could never give a satisfactory answer to GZ. And GZ could never offer a "nonfrontational" question.

Another aspect, TM "stood his ground" and lost. Which is why GZ couldn't make that defense.

I'm not making a verdict. The fact is that GZ killed TM. The question the jury has to decide is whether it TM death was justifiable-which is not a guilty or not guilty decision.

-- Edited by longprime on Wednesday 26th of June 2013 10:39:26 AM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I was leaving the hospital late the other night. It is one of the inest hospitals in the area, but the neighborhood is decidely sketchy. So was someone lurking in the parking garage near my car.

there was this kind that set off my internal alarm. Went back inside. Couldn't find a security guard. Fortunately I saw him leaving thru an alley exit as I came back to the garage. Is it fair to brand a person as creepy? Dressed fine, he was a white guy in his 20's, may have been the same age as one of my boys. But, I got a weird feeling.

I have no idea what will happen to GZ, but I suspect like catahoula suggests, it will be manslaughter, at least.

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Wednesday 26th of June 2013 08:00:48 AM

catahoula · Guru

Hoodies tend to make me color-blind too.

Two idiots met, one of them died. Martin might have become something else but Zimmerman... Zimmerman, old enough to be unlikely to change, picked a fight (metaphorically, if not in fact) knowing he had the means to win it. The vagaries of the justice system might have resulted in anything from him being no-billed to doing time for murder, but if I was on the jury and could give it to him, he'd be looking at manslaughter at least.

hope · Guru

Oh, need to watch The Unforgiven again-- hadn't remembered Hackman was in it. Have a new appreciation for him since recently watching The Conversation. Excellent movie. The Lives of Others also highly recommended, apropos of today's headlines. :)

longprime · Guru

Gene Hackman is one of my favorite actors.

IMO, Trayvon should not have died.

Somewhere in this trial, someone will bring up the notion that young men should "stand your ground" and to fight back when threatened. If you was accosted along the streets where you live, would you stop and give a detailed account? or run only to be shot in the back? or standup and be a Man.

Not to say GZ did not have the right to protect his neighborhood. But GZ apparently got into Trayon's personal space.

Xpost with Cat. Every so often we do agree. evileye

-- Edited by longprime on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 08:43:45 PM

longprime · Guru

Our DS doesn't collect momentoes (momentii ?). I had to buy an hoodie as a souvenir at his graduation. It was a very expensive hoodie. He does, extensively wear hoodies year round in Seattle.

There is a reason why Marshall Matt Dillion restricted the display and use of hand guns in Dodge City.

The sheriff (Gene Hackman) in Clint Eastwood's The Unforgiven , banned weapons within the city boundary.

-- Edited by longprime on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 07:31:34 PM

hope · Guru

My son is a very fair, pink-cheeked strawberry blondish, short haired, Caucasian 22 year old.

A few weeks ago he was cutting across several neighbors' yards to visit an old hs friend who lives in an adjacent neighborhood.

When he arrived, his friend's mom told him she had received a call from a neighbor alerting her to my son's suspicious passage through the neighborhood. Apparently she had called several other neighbors also.

Oh, left out the most important fact....he was wearing a hoodie.

-- Edited by hope on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 06:42:46 PM