Political & Elections

hope · Guru

The new Pope

conyat · Veteran Member

Hope, would you care to elaborate on the "powerful forces" that don't want there to be a Catholic Church? I know the Seventh Day Adventists (or at least the ones I've met) do not consider it a legitimate religion (for reasons I won't go into here), but I wouldn't consider them powerful, and I think their aim is more to avoid or convert Catholics than it is to destroy the church. Can you please provide some more information on who these enemies are and what steps they have taken so far?

I'm not sure why it's remarkable that people comment on the new pope. The Pope is the head of state (a city state) that participates in a number of international organizations, and is a full member (though non-voting) of the United Nations. Currently, through the UN, the Vatican is working with Egypt and Iran to try to derail a declaration urging an end to violence against women and girls. That very much makes the Pope (any Pope) a political figure that non-Catholics and non-citizens of the Vatican State can appropriately comment on, just as there is a thread here about the Venezualan elections even though it's doubtful that the person who started it is Venezualan.

Francis seems like a genuinely good person. I think he will make a lot of positive changes in the Vatican bureaucracy. I don't think that he will change doctrine much. I think he is more interested in other aspects of his calling, such as ministering to the poor and making the Vatican more responsive to the needs of the cardinals and bishops. And from a pragmatic purpose, it doesn't make sense. The people who are Catholics for spiritual reasons will continue to be Catholic even if they disagree with the Vatican's position on whether democratic governments should prevent people from entering into secular legal contracts that the Church does not approve of; and the people who are Catholic merely because they believe it legitimizes their political identity will continue not to understand why the spiritual folks stay when they themselves would not.

-- Edited by conyat on Sunday 14th of April 2013 08:54:22 PM

-- Edited by conyat on Sunday 14th of April 2013 09:55:37 PM

-- Edited by conyat on Sunday 14th of April 2013 09:56:33 PM

hope · Guru

After 187 posts, most of them outright Catholic bashing, or passive aggressive Catholic bashing) and 5,122 views, CC decides to close down the 2nd Pope thread!

I think they got worried when ariesathena arrived on the scene. Just happened to be several posts before the sudden realization the thread was discussing religion, Lol. I knew her back when the CC crowd would rake her over the coals for her views on chastity. She is one smart cookie.

Once again, shame on CC.

hope · Guru

"The Catholic Church has changed a lot over the years..."

Keep wishin' and hopin' John Doe. In the meantime, I take it no one is forcing you to be a Catholic? Perhaps you can search out a religion more in keeoingwith your beliefs, Whatever they are. There is certainly something for everyone out there!

catahoula · Guru

Years have passed but would there be an expectation in some circles that he wouldn't prosecute... maybe 'follow through' would be a better term... his understanding of the requirements for being in good standing in the eye of the church?

In the Aparecida Document, a document that represents a joint statement by Latin American church leaders but presented by Francis in 2007, the leaders stated, “we should commit ourselves to ‘eucharistic coherence,’ that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in particular when abortions, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.”

If I had to guess, CC shut that thread down on the suspicion a few delicate minds over there would end up traumatized. Good call.

john doe · Guru

Really - 2000 years? How about the infallibility of the pope? (1869 first vatican council) How about the immaculate conception? How about the filioque clause in the Nicene Creed changed by the pope in the 11th century? How about the celibacy of priests? I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. The Catholic church has changed a lot over the years.

hope · Guru

Yes, really.

Not to say you would know that by the news coverage the last few days, which included many interviews with "liberal" nuns, or ex-priests, I noticed, who talked about Benedict as being too "conservative" and Francis as "too conservative" LOL.

When the Church starts changing its positions on natural law and the sanctity of human life (I.e. those pesky social issues"), there will

no longer be a Catholic Church--the goal of many powerful forces.

i

john doe · Guru

"The Pope is charged with upholding the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is neither liberal, conservative, or any other political label. It is what it is, and what it has been for 2,000 years."

Really?? That's not my understanding and this is why this kind of stuff keeps coming up.

hope · Guru

It is very amusing to me when people talk about a "liberal" Pope or a "conservative" Pope. As if it's an American political election.

The Pope is charged with upholding the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is neither liberal, conservative, or any other political label. It is what it is, and what it has been for 2,000 years. God-willing it will continue as it is. This is not to say that the human beings within in the Church, clergy as well as laity, can't be misguided, weak, or even evil And could at any time lead the Church down a wayward path. With Francis we appear to be safe for at least another 10 years. Catholics are called upon to "pray for the Church" for this reason.

Those "nuns on the bus" or "liberal Jesuits" attempting to undermine true Church doctrine may be many things and very popular among secularists, but they are not Catholic no matter what they call themselves. Benedict was right to clamp down on wayward nuns and to clean up seminaries. The abuses in formation of priests which led to the "pedophile" scandal occurred in primarily Jesuit seminaries. It is ironic indeed that non-Catholics and secularists so revere the Jesuits. Most are fine men: many are not. No better or worse than other priests.

The ignorance on CC Catholic threads, other than a few knowledgable posters, is amazing, putting aside the outright bigotry. My favorite posters have always been the ones who are ex-Catholic, who the detractors turn to for validation; or the ones who have nuns or priests in the family- likewise. When it comes to discussions of Catholicism over there, nothing ever changes- at lease since 2006 when I started reading.

john doe · Guru

Interesting - I didn't think that there were any major religions that believed in gay marriage, abortion etc.

Razorsharp · Guru

It was stupid to close down that threat on CC about the new Pope. CC should be ashamed of itself.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Some denominations do.

john doe · Guru

Does the Jewish faith believe in gay marriage?

hope · Guru

Thank you, Samurai!

hope · Guru

"it affects us non-Catholics too."

Finally the crux of the matter.

It's a religion. It is not political. Ponder that and get back to me.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Donna is Jewish.

john doe · Guru

"But I know DonnaL has a political agenda (esp gay rights and jewish) and CC states it does not tolerate that. "

I'm not a Catholic. Not to bash DonnaL but if she's a Catholic and doesn't like these beliefs, then perhaps she should find another faith. They are not going to change now or most likely ever.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

To all those Catholics, this must be good news. A new pope and an emeritus pope. Double your blessing!

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Didn't realize non-Catholics didn't get to weigh in. Sorry, but when it's all over the news, every channel, outsiders get to weigh in. It affects us non-Catholics, too. When he doesn't, I won't feel the need to weigh in.

longprime · Guru

Really not much interested in the Roman Catholics electing a new Pope. Good for the Catholics. Probably not bad for all Religions.

Catholism probably relies on the 80/20 rule. Socialism doesn't work well in a 80/20 environment.

cbreeze · Veteran Member

I have no problems with non-Catholics weighing in but in compliance with CC rules, it should be non-political. I am a non practising Catholic and my children and H are not catholics. But I know DonnaL has a political agenda (esp gay rights and jewish) and CC states it does not tolerate that. I don't practise Catholicism because I don't agree with the Church's rules created by men. But I am joyous we have a new pope. Period. Why can't he say he shares today's joy with the rest of the world. But no............

-- Edited by cbreeze on Wednesday 13th of March 2013 06:44:00 PM

cbreeze · Veteran Member

Yeah, I am here because I don't want to have the new thread closed down because of someone who wants to judge the new pope on his relations with the Jews in Argentina. Instead why don't people judge the Jews on their relations to other people of a different religion or another ethnic group?

-- Edited by cbreeze on Wednesday 13th of March 2013 06:09:01 PM

hope · Guru

Too funny, people at CC are applauding the decision (non-Catholics who must of course weigh in!)) because he is focused on social justice. Obama has already co-opted himas a simpatico because he cares about the vulnerable.

Seriously people, the Church is not a socialist organization. Specifically, they are anti-socialist, seeing that those on that end of the spectrum have an annoying habit of requiring allegiance to the State, and not to God. Caring for the poor, and government intervention into caring for the poor, are two different things.

Get over yourselves, already ! You are just showing your ignorance.

Btw, you do realize Pope Francis is not an advocate of gay adoption, yet alone gay marriage!

You can pout for ten more years, at least . :)

-- Edited by hope on Wednesday 13th of March 2013 04:01:51 PM