I don't trust my son's choices in women, romani. He has exhibited poor taste in women thus far, IMO, which I think I mentioned early on . I am perfectly wiling to concede that perhaps I am a lousy parent because I don't trust his choices in this area. So be it. He is making poor choices regarding this gf. . I have tried to open his eyes a bit. So shoot me already . I totally disagree with your entire premise -sorry.
As for maturity , at way past 50, I'm feelin' pretty mature these days . :) you might even feel that way yourself 40 years from now--you never know . ;)
It has a lot to do with trust. Trust that he'll make the right decisions. Trust that you raised him well enough to make the right decisions. Like I said, just my opinion.
As for "mature"... I don't think we're ever really mature. I'm not fully mature... that's for sure. And I hope to the stars I never am.
Not sure what this has to do with trust, Romani . My s is smart in many ways , and in many ways clueless. It sounds like you were fully matured at, like, 14? Some kids take a bit longer . As for myself , it took me to age 50 . :)
You could think that that's their reasoning or, in the case of my family, you would know that the parents trust themselves and their children enough to trust their children's choice in partners. My parents did a great job raising me and trust my choices. Therefore, if I love them then my family accepts them right away. If they didn't care, they wouldn't treat the SOs like family. They would just acknowledge their existence.
I put "side" in quotes for a reason. However, it was pretty clear most posters felt there was nothing wrong with not saying thank you, nothing wrong wth the note, and that I had better watch it or I might alienate my son. I said several times that I appreciated those opinions, and considered them. I was just sort of happy to see an opinion (after 9 days) which aligned more with what I have been thinking on my own (after 9 days). Nothing wrong with that?
I read somewhere that if you wanted to know something about the prospect, you should look at the prospect's mother. Particularly if the mother is grossly fat, then the prospect will be fat too. I at least that was one of the things I looked at when I was looking at W. So did this prospect have a big butt and big hair?
-- Edited by longprime on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 10:27:09 AM
And to be clear romani, if I haven't been already, no one is attempting to put a stop to the relationship, no one is going to disown my S if he continues the relationship. As I said, I'm interested to see how it proceeds. There is little chance of my interference since he'll be away at school all year. If he marries the girl, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. In the meantime, since it's clear he values our opinion, or he wouldn't bother setting up occasions for us to meet her, I am going to respect him enough to be honest with him. In these "they took me in as part of the family the first time I met them scenarios," (not referring to yours), I have to sometimes wonder if the families just can't be bothered or care enough to put much thought into it.
It is not easy to do. As SLS said, kids get very defensive, even angry. Easier course is to say nothing.
-- Edited by hope on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 07:44:57 AM
-- Edited by hope on Wednesday 8th of August 2012 07:57:08 AM
Are parents being good parents and friends being good friends if they don't do so?
IMHO, as someone who dated/was engaged to the "wrong" one for 5 years, I'm glad my parents never said a word against him. It would have made me more determined to make it work and it would have made me angry with them.
When your child reaches that age, they have developed their own ideas of what/who they want. The best course of action, IMO, is to support them and trust them to make the "right" decision for themselves. Obviously if there is abuse or something, that is an entirely different animal.
Then again, I'm the girl in this scenario so what do I know. I obviously don't have a parents' perspective and I don't pretend I do.
I do find it also interesting that you thought we were siding with girlfriend.
You asked our opinions. We gave them.
I looked at it from the perspective of a mom with a daughter, and as the mom of sons and as a young engaged 20 something who could never do anything right with my future father in law.
Held hostage? I don't think so. It isn't Stockholm Syndrome to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Just offering another perspective. If you don't like it, no worries. You came on here asking for our opinions. We gave them. I don't think you liked them. Oh well. Clearly there is something else here that bugs you.
My guess is this girl is always going to bug you. First impressions and all.
I wish you the best of luck if your son and her make a future together, because you may feel this way forever.
Fascinating, winchester. I was not surprised that most posters took the "side" of the gf, no questions asked. You have been the only dissenting opinion.
Well... we can really only go by what you post. Those of us who took the "side" of the gf are ONLY going by what is presented here.
There's probably a tendency for people who aren't on the ground to assume judgements arrived at under stress might deserve a second thought. Not a taking sides so much as a desire for someone to allow a little time and distance for reflection.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you might as well do what's right for you and let the chips fall where they may.
Fascinating, winchester. I was not surprised that most posters took the "side" of the gf, no questions asked. You have been the only dissenting opinion.
That is why I referred to the "hostage mentality" so many parents seem to have. It seems to me that if a parent has built up a decent relationship with their kids, the kids will take that parent's opinion into account. In any event, I feel a parent has the obligation to make that opinion clear. When did parents start abdicating that responsibility, in favor of the "you don't want to alientate that girl" mentality?
I've read many threads on CC about just this sort of situation, and the only poster who stands out in my mind as being consistently in favor of parents expressing their honest judgments about gfs/bfs has been Hanna. Are parents being good parents and friends being good friends if they don't do so?
As I mentioned, I had the same issues about S's hs gf. We weathered the storm, and then some. He's older now; I am not quite as vocal, but he's gotten my drift. Not to say I wasn't gracious to his guest.
I have made it clear to him that, guess what, I have the right to express my feelings the same way his generation feels oh so entitled to do. I don't think these kids have been educated to think that. The self-esteem generation seems to think that they, and they alone, have all the answers.
you can't quite put your finger on about one of your kids friends/girlfriends, that just doesn't seem likeable. And it's hard to describe, but you know it.
Trust your instincts, or your "little voice" as Thomas Magnum used to say.
It's there for a reason, and the things it tells us are more often true than not, even if they can't be explained by "facts" or "logic" or "reason" or are otherwise "hard to describe."
The fact that something is hard to describe is no reflection on how real or important it may be.
__________________
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
she's high-maintenance, and appears to be one of those people who are chronically ticked-off about something.
I don't mean to blow this out of propotion. The initial "offense" that started this thread may be nothing more than an innocent oversight by an otherwise good-hearted person.
But...
The things in the quote are potential warning signs. With time, things like this are more likely to get worse than get better.
There are a lot more people walking around out there in the world with some sort of personality disorder than we like to think or admit.
We all have our quirks and our eccentricities; our "little things" that annoy other people.
But when one or more of those things becomes so prevalent that it gets in the way of having normal healthy relationships with other people then that's a disorder.
Being too careful to avoid alienating another person, or being too careful to avoid making another person angry with you or disappointed in you can be a dangerous thing. You can end up living your life in fear, or at least being dictated by, what you think others might think of you instead of what you think is right and/or is right FOR YOU. You can end up handing over control of your own life to others.
And the thing is, other people may be just as alienated or angry or disappointed by your fear of confict and constant acquiescence and appeasement as they might be by you speaking up.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you might as well do what's right for you and let the chips fall where they may.
That doesn't mean you have to be rude or beligerant or hostile. It's usually possible do what's right for you AND be polite and human about it.
The only person in the world whose core happiness you have any real control over is you, why hand that away?
__________________
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
To be clear, I do appreciate the responses, and I took them into account, but my gut was telling me otherwise. It was refreshing to see winchester's posts after all these days!
And to answer your question, catahoula, which I never really answered (sorry)--I don't know how to respond to your question of "how she was raised" (that's why I answered about her evident background). I met her father for one meal, but I have no idea if he and his wife taught their children to say please or thank you or how to write thank you notes.My S let spill that he sort of urged her to write one (knowing this is a biggy with me). He also let it slip that it was a "struggle" for her to write it. Now we can either take her "side" and decide I must be a monster for her to think that way, or allow that maybe my concerns have merit.
Either way, I do appreciate everyone taking the time to delve into this with me.
-- Edited by hope on Tuesday 7th of August 2012 07:21:16 PM
Exactly. Imo, she's high-maintenance, and appears to be one of those people who are chronically ticked-off about something. This is nothing like my S, who is pretty easy-going. She's caused mucho drama in his life. I don't want to go into further detail about his personal and our family challenges, but, trust me, he does not need that.
As to how she personally treats him, I have no idea since I'm not privy to their conversations and he did most of the talking when she was here. So I can't comment on that.
But oh, well. Their relationship will work its way out one way or the other. In a way I'm curious to see what the outcome will be. One of my faults is giving people too many chances, so I'm sure I'll be doing that once more if/when the time comes. I wanted to like her. I want someone to love and care for my S. I just haven't had the impression that this is the right woman to do it.
It is hard for us to put ourselves in your place and see the dynamic. Sometimes, as a parent, there is something you can't quite put your finger on about one of your kids friends/girlfriends, that just doesn't seem likeable. And it's hard to describe, but you know it. Though I really don't think there is anything at all wrong with the letter, it seems like there are other things that bother you about her, and there is probably no way she could have written something that would make you more comfortable with her. Honestly, I think it's not worth worrying about how she treats you or how grateful she is to you (unless she is blatently awful). What really matters is how she treats your son, and if she treats him badly, then I hope they break up.
I think people may have different perspectives based on their own experiences. I certainly know people that are effusive and gracious, and completely over the top in their thankfulness. And it means nothing, when behind your back you see biting and vicious behavior. Some people are excellent at playing the game, but that doesn't make them attractive to me. There have been kids that I knew that were so outgoing and friendly to adults....and bullies when you weren't looking.
I suspect that you would not like one of my sons. INTJ personality, though we had thought he had aspergers for awhile. Had he been at your house, he would have been quiet, rarely conversational, and you might have gotten merely a "thank you for letting me stay here," as he was leaving. He certainly wouldn't have passed muster. But (if you had a daughter), he would be kind, loyal, gentle, and never raise his voice to her or say an unkind word to her.
There are many different personalities in this world, and I do not expect that people must act a certain way or they are raised improperly or are inconsiderate. I think that people who are close to someone who is unusual in a way become more accepting of others. I tend to look for things I like in someone, and try hard to overlook the things I don't. It's far more pleasant that way. I am so grateful for the occasional hug or funny conversation from my kid, when he allows me into his life just briefly.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the note. Even adding "love" is a very big step that most people would not do. In order to find something wrong with the note, you would have to already detest her. Now you may have many reasons for disliking her, but this thank you note should not give any ammunition. Some people gush, some people don't. The fact that she wrote the note is amazing, very few people do that nowadays. Especially since I'm sure she can tell that you dislike her, there is no hiding that when the feeling is so strong, whether one tries to or not.
Out of curiosity, what would an appropriate thank you note say instead?
Hope,
I didn't read resentment or too attached to family in note.
I heard a young girl, grateful to you that you allowed her the opportunity to see your son for his birthday and to stay with you in your home.
Some thank you notes are more effusive with praise, but I think hers was fine.
Several years ago an old teacher of mine saw me and raved about a thank you note my son sent to her. I went to same high school as my kids, and this teacher was my mentor. She was driven to tears by it. I asked my son if he had a copy and if I could read it. He showed it to me.
I wasn't overwhelmed by what he wrote. She was, though.
I do think that sometimes when we already have an opinion about something, we filter our expectations, accordingly. I get the impression, hope, that you don't really like her. If I am wrong,I stand corrected.
If you don't adore this girl, it is easier to read a thank you note or interaction differently than intended. I think the fact that she sent it - and signed "love" was actually a signal of her affection for you and son.
She is young. Give her a chance.
I hardly know this girl--met her only three other times (she lives in CA), but I was really hoping to get a better impression of her than previously, not a worse one. She did absolutely nothing to try to win my regard. I think she's very young and immature.
I could add self-centered and entitled to that list. Already stated I like one of my son's gf's. Such is life.
In the recent thread on CC about the Mom struggling with her son's gf attending his graduation, some parents questioned why we must be "held hostage" (as one put it) by the idea that this may be our DIL! She may keep me from seeing my granchildren! To that I say, if my son marries any woman that would do that, it would break my heart for him. Seeing my grandchildren would be the last of my worries.
In my day (dark ages), we were taught to make an effort. As the note says, in her view she "stayed in your apartment while I was in town" (Was I even there?) This may account for why she did not feel she had to make an effort; that is, to converse with her boyfriend's boring old mom, to say thank you after having been made/bought dinner, to not whisper to her boyfriend god-knows-what in my presence, to be alert to the fact that there are other people in the room besides herself and her bf. This takes effort. It is called good manners.
It's a sad commentary, imo, that someone gets brownie points for doing something which should be expected. Everybody says the F-word nowadays, but I wouldn't give someone props for not saying the F-word either.
The note, busdriver, should reference other than "staying in your apartment while I was in town," and the ability to celebrate my son's birthday while she was "in town." The reason she was "in town" was because she was invited to be " in town" at our home. Without that invitation, she would not have been "in town." Weird.
I was taught to write thank-you notes in Brownie Scouts.
Dear Mrs. Hope,
Thank you so much for inviting me to stay with you last week. It was so nice to be able to spend some time with you and Hope-son, especially since it was over Hope-son's birthday. I enjoyed seeing the area where Hope-son grew up, and visiting some of the sights. Baldwin's Book Barn was amazing! Thanks for recommending that!
I hope when I come out this fall to see Hope-son we can once again get together.
Thanks again,
Girlfriend
Not a fan of signing off "love" when clearly the young lady hardly knows me, nor has she shown much interest in doing so. Different strokes.
I appreciate your thoughts, though! It helps me clarify my own. The lack of a verbal "thank you" was not a deal-breaker, but, unfortunately, this note is.
-- Edited by hope on Monday 6th of August 2012 06:47:55 PM
-- Edited by hope on Monday 6th of August 2012 06:49:20 PM
-- Edited by hope on Monday 6th of August 2012 06:53:11 PM
She seems damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.
The thank you note sounds just fine. That's more than the vast majority of my generation would do. Maybe she didn't even realize until she left that she didn't say thank you. I've done that before because I'm pretty scatter-brained.
I read zero resentment, especially of over-attachment, in that note.
-- Edited by romanigypsyeyes on Monday 6th of August 2012 02:53:28 PM
I meant 'raised' more in the sense of being taught good manners.
For instance: "Yes, ma'am" and "no, sir" to adults in general and especially the parents of her boy friends. And expressions of gratitude to hosts, up to and including thank-you notes. Some parents do it and some don't, regardless of their income, how bright their kids are, or where they send them to school.
The long view might be that the visit was a snapshot in time and she may very well grow and grow well with a little light prodding.
Just my .02
-- Edited by catahoula on Monday 6th of August 2012 07:01:54 AM
In this case, he's just going into senior year, and due to other considerations I haven't mentioned, it's in his best interest at this time to stay close us. I think she has other ideas. As I said earlier, if he were two or three years older, I would totally butt out.
hope: "The thank-you note was worse than not getting one, lp, because I think this young lady resents our son's attachment to his family, which this note made painfully clear to me."
It's tough to be a guy.
Either we are supposedly attached to Mom or attached to our mate.
Others have questioned "how she was raised" too. She was raised in a middle to upper middle class family and attended one of the best public high schools in the country, where she excelled, obviously. Her mother owns a family business. They are full-pay at Penn. Her mother took her on a two week trip to Europe as a graduation present. I have met her father, who seems okay.
The thank-you note was worse than not getting one, lp, because I think this young lady resents our son's attachment to his family, which this note made painfully clear to me.
If you had any clue as to how she was raised, you might be able to make a better call as to what it all means.
I'm male but from the south - one kind of cancels the other out - and if I knew she was acting within whatever etiquette bounds she knew, I'd tend to worry more about how she treated my son, rather than whether she dotted i's with me.
Received a thank-you note. Much worse than not having received one. I stocked food/drink she liked, cooked meals, took them out to dinner/lunch. She was here 10 days.
Mrs. Hope,
Thank you so much for letting me stay in your apartment while I was in town.
I really appreciate it, and I'm so happy I got to be in town with Hope-son for his birthday.
Love,
Girlfriend
Any thoughts would be welcome.
-- Edited by hope on Sunday 5th of August 2012 05:36:37 PM
I am pretty sure my future in-laws thought I was ruining their son's future.
One thing about sons...if you don't play your cards right, you risk losing them to the women they love and make their lives with.
Having a couple of boys and a girl, I am keen on having a better relationship with my future daughter in laws then I had.
Although my mom in law was great for the most part, we had a lot of bumps the first few years. We both could have made it easier for each other.
True, I suppose so. In the meantime some of these kids can be truly obnoxious. No doubt this young lady is intelligent (170 LSAT score, 3.8 gpa at Penn); however, as I have tried to outline, she comes across as being very young, immature, and entitled. Not to say my S may not have some of the same issues, since he's involved with her. But if they are planning a future together, that includes over $450k in combined debt for law/grad school. What mother wouldn't worry? They are too young. Get thee to a nunnery, ma'am, and leave my son alone until you've been out on your own working an actual job for three or four years!
My mother-in-law hated my very existence since before I met her (I was robbing her of her son--she succeeded with her older one--he never married). The thing is, in over thirty years you wouldn't catch her being rude, let alone anything but totally polite to me.(And make no mistake, I'm sure she thought very highly of herself for so politely tolerating me.) Unless one is an academy award-winning actress, true feelings can be faked. That, plus life is too short. I will be (and was) polite to this young lady, but you can't fake warmth and real regard, imo. If the girl can't tell, my S sure can. Oh well. Considering all the mother-in-law horror stories out there, I suppose I'm lucky I am fond of at least one of my two sons' SO's.
P.S. Still no thank you note.
-- Edited by hope on Monday 30th of July 2012 07:26:45 PM
-- Edited by hope on Monday 30th of July 2012 07:28:01 PM
She sounds quite motivated. That is far more impressive than a girl who just wants to bum around. There could be worse problems. I'm sure soon enough, life will stomp her down like it did to the rest of us.
S1 has a lovely gf whom he's been dating for several years and I hope they'll marry. S2 (this one) just has horrendous taste in women, imo. His high school and first semester college gf was very similar. Yes, I alienated him and her because the better I knew her, the more I disliked her. He was even younger then, and I couldn't help myself. But he got over it and is now embarrassed about the relationship. I hardly know this girl--met her only three other times (she lives in CA), but I was really hoping to get a better impression of her than previously, not a worse one. She did absolutely nothing to try to win my regard. I think she's very young and immature. She texts him around the clock, including during summer classes he is taking. Sigh. She's already graduated and he has one more year, so I'm just praying it will fizzle. And I certainly pray she won't be the mother of my grandchildren, lp.
I would love to believe that, SLS, however (cynic that I am by this point), I tend to doubt it. This is a young lady who thought she was going to be the first wise Latina on the Supreme Court until Sonia Sotomayor got there first. Not kidding. I think I am a blip on the radar screen of her career and mate goals.
-- Edited by hope on Sunday 29th of July 2012 09:43:55 PM
Hope,
What would you say to your son about gf's manners? Can you imagine that conversation?
He will either be defensive of her or deferential of you, and either way, someone is going to lose.
You don't want to alienate that girl. She might yet end up your daughter in law.
As busdriver said, if she was mean to son, different story. I hate goodbyes too - maybe she felt awkward or sad or who knows?
Definitely not a deal breaker. If she treats my son with kindness and affection, that's all I care about. Sometimes young people don't even think about things like that was your apartment, she thinks she just came to visit her boyfriend, probably with no thought of the effort that you put into it. Definitely how someone is raised, and their personality. After she hosts people for awhile, she'll realize the effort involved, and probably be more gracious. I personally hate saying goodbye to people, so I'd prefer to slip out quietly if I knew I could get away with it....usually can't. I could overlook many things if she was sweet and loving to my son. If she's a witch, I don't care about her manners, she's outta there! Not that it would be my choice.
It might be a deal breaker for you, but not for your son.
I was pretty annoyed with my in-laws before and after we got married, but it wasn't going to change anything.
Sometimes you have to suck it up and realize that some folks don't have a clue and it was just how they were raised.
So gf came to visit S2 for ten days. Left without saying goodbye to me or thanking me. Okay, giving her the benefit of the doubt--maybe I'll get a thank you card? Circumstances are odd since I am living with S in an apartment while house is being built. But still--it is my apartment, which I am paying for.
Putting aside other positive/negative impressions of this young woman, and assuming no thank you note is forthcoming, isn't this rather a deal breaker? Really? All thoughts welcome!!
