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Post Info TOPIC: Don't want mandated healthcare earn less


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Date: Jun 4, 2011
RE: Don't want mandated healthcare earn less
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Well, there you have it. One probably doesn't have to guess who's responsible for the "creative editing" and context robbing interpretation of that quote, does one?disbelief



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Date: Jun 4, 2011
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Oh my - where to begin...

This is a fine example of the right wing media cherry picking a line from a very sophisticated argument. 

First, you have to understand the nature of appellate arguments and then you have to  listen to the argument to even begin to understand this quote. Kaytal was not recommending a course of action or remedy. He was responding to what was essentially a hypothetical question. In the Heart of Atlanta case, the Supreme Court did not address the idea that hotels and motels could just close up shop to avoid serving everyone. Judge Sutton knows this and the attorneys arguing the case know this. This was a construct of Judge Sutton, not Kaytal. Thus the answer included the language, "If we're going to play that game..."It was Judge Sutton who asked if he meant that someone could just make less money to get out of the mandate. Kaytal said that arguing that hotel owners could just get out of the business and that people could just make less money is "fanciful." That was a nice way of saying that Judge Sutton was conjuring up a huge red herring. Here is what was actually said

KATYAL: Well, but they're in that business but they're forcing people to serve - they're forcing people to do something that they wouldn't otherwise do.

SUTTON: They're in the business, they're told if you're going to be in the business, this is what you have to do. In response to that law they could have said 'we now exit the business.'

KATYAL: Sure -

SUTTON: Individuals don't have that option.

KATYAL: Judge Sutton, if we're going to play that game, I think that game could be played here as well because after all, the minimum coverage provision only kicks in if people have earned a certain amount of income. So it's a penalty on earning a certain amount of income and self-insuring. It's not just on self-insuring on their own. So I guess one could say, just like the restaurant owner could depart the market in Heart of Atlanta Motel, someone doesn't need to earn that much income. I think both are kind of fanciful and I think get at the -

SUTTON: That wasn't one of - in any, a single speech given in Congress about this law.

KATYAL: Well, I think that -

SUTTON: The idea that the solution if you don't like it is make a little less money?

KATYAL: No because the solution -- in justice, it wasn't of course in Heart of Atlanta Motel that people said 'you don't have to be restaurant owners' and the like, and I think what congress was reacting to was a world in which there are 50 million people who are uninsured and who are increasing the premiums, across state lines, to the tune of $1,000 per family.

 

If you would like to hear what was really said at that moment, I isolated just that part - click on the link below. It starts with Sutton. You really have to listen to the entire section of the argument though. Kaytal is excellent at what he does - his ability to address and distinguish the cases was excellent. He was hammered by Judge Sutton, known on the 6th Circuit as the “intellectual engine behind some of the majority’s more conservative opinions.”

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHu0FKEZIqM



-- Edited by Cartera on Saturday 4th of June 2011 12:47:27 PM

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Date: Jun 4, 2011
dis-incentives cont.
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Company said that he would be a 3 month contract-probationary employee and thus would not be eligible for group HI. And as a contract employee he would be self-employeed and pickup all payroll taxes. We told him that's great because this would leave no strings attached at the end of 3 months if he should decide to go somewhere else. 

The following Monday, they told him he could remain as a contract employee or they could put him on temporary status and withhold payroll taxes. I am guessing that with Obama's temporary-shortterm payroll tax abatement for new hires, it wasn't worth the chance for DS to be disgrunted over a small amount of $$ but Certainly more than what HI would cost. 



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Dis-incentives
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DS took a new job last month (no longer with a university). He's near to the top income bracket, I believe, with no deductions and no dependents. He turned down a job offer that offered him 33% more. He turned the offer not because of the money, or the company, but who he was going to work with and where the work was located. 



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Date: Jun 3, 2011
RE: Don't want mandated healthcare earn less
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“If we’re going to play that game, I think that game can be played here as well, because after all, the minimum coverage provision only kicks in after people have earned a minimum amount of income,”

I think he's suggesting dissenters should consider switching party affliation and that they'll be taken care of if they do.

Pretty seductive argument.



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It's too complicated for me
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I do know that we should have done something during Clinton's era. 

I do know that the old system prior to Obama was failing. 

I do know that the new and to be implemented system will fail not necessarily because it was badly design but because there are no jobs that pay taxes. 



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Working Harder
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Have you ever had a salary job? As you know working harder does not mean extra money. Working harder may only mean that you win the disdain of your coworkers, or you only get to keep you J.O.B.

Working harder and smarter only works when you are in a position where results can have real monetary metrics as in the  financial area. Beggars, on-the-street, have more opportunity and incentives to increase their income than working Americans. Undocumented residents likewise have more incentive and opportunity. evileye



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Prima:
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In October, our Cobra ends. DW will hit the big 65 in 2012. I will hit it in 2015. We are in forced retirement mode in taking care of senior parents. 

I doubt that we will make the  qualifying income threshold (pension & SS) and could avoid HI. We do have sufficient assets to afford HI. 



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RE: Don't want mandated healthcare earn less
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Samurai,

Yep, the recession ended, but now it looks like we are going into a recession from the recession.

I just couldn't believe he actually said, just make less money! To me it was the most pompous and insincere response anyone could have given. I hope Obama called him in for that and read him a riot act.



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The rulings so far follow the party lines of the makeup of the panel, so he probably could just whistle Dixie and get the same decision.



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Sure, earning less money is an option.

Most of us live in the real world, where we have far more bills to pay than just our healthcare ones. Most people don't want to work harder to make more money, but it's the reality, in order to pay the bills. College costs don't go down, fluctuating gas and food costs are taking a bigger hit of many family's budgets.

I remember actually saying something along these lines on the CC bulletin board a couple of years ago. At that point, it was about taxes and how the incentive to be more productive would be reduced at a certain point with punitive taxes. Less money in, less money out in taxes. A stagnant economy with less incentive for consumers to work and spend isn't going to help us get out of this downturn. Although the recession ended, it sure doesn't feel like it for my family or many people I know.

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Obama solicitor general: If you don't like mandate, earn less money

President Obama's solicitor general, defending the national health care law on Wednesday, told a federal appeals court that Americans who didn't like the individual mandate could always avoid it by choosing to earn less money....

Kaytal conceded that the Supreme Court had “never been confronted directly” with the question, but cited the Heart of Atlanta Motel case as a relevant example. In that landmark 1964 civil rights case, the Court ruled that Congress could use its Commerce Clause power to bar discrimination by private businesses such as hotels and restaurants.

“They’re in the business,” Sutton pushed back. “They’re told if you’re going to be in the business, this is what you have to do. In response to that law, they could have said, ‘We now exit the business.’ Individuals don’t have that option.”

Kaytal responded by noting that the there's a provision in the health care law that allows people to avoid the mandate.

“If we’re going to play that game, I think that game can be played here as well, because after all, the minimum coverage provision only kicks in after people have earned a minimum amount of income,”

So there's your out.  Don't want in, don't make moneyconfuse

 



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