Political & Elections

Razorsharp · Guru

RE: Osama dead!

DonnaL · Senior Member

Reagan would have killed every one of those barbarians? You mean, like the way he cut and ran from Lebanon after more than 200 marines were killed? Invading Grenada was more his style when it came to being tough.

soccerguy315 · Guru

Brennan was a big supporter of enhanced interrogation. That's why he holds a position that did not require confirmation.

catahoula · Guru

The issue will be spun until its completely dizzy and the retractions, walk-backs, and corrections will be endless:

"The intelligence was acquired over the last nine years or so. And there was some painstaking work done by some very, very dedicated analysts," John Brennan, the top White House counter-terrorism adviser, told CNN.

"There was no one single piece of information that was an 'ah-ha' moment that led us to Abbottabad," the Pakistani city where bin Laden was killed in a raid by US special forces.

"It was acquired over time. There was a lot of information from a lot of different sources including some people in detention."

Mr. Brennan, I believe, will eventually turn out to have been speaking of a very specific group of detainees... one's with conjugal visits, no Britney Spears music, and an environment only a hydropobic personality could really appreciate.

-- Edited by catahoula on Tuesday 3rd of May 2011 08:00:33 PM

hayden · Senior Member

As with most things from this operation, much of the information gets refined and corrected over time. I believe this "information" has already been challenged as well. Since this story line was the very first thing that was reported after the completion of the operation, I doubted it immediately, since anyone in the know wouldn't have been so frantic to release it. This info came from someone not in the know, who had an agenda.

Not to mention, it doesn't make sense. If torture worked, they would have gotten a lot more than a nickname.

-- Edited by hayden on Tuesday 3rd of May 2011 02:14:42 PM

geeps20 · Senior Member

located due to Bush's enhanced interrogations which led to the ID of the courier. That's how it's done(to all the liberal weenies)

zoosermom · Senior Member

My boss, who is a prominent Pakistani-American, is truly devastated by this turn of events. Crushed is not too strong of a word.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Hansen has it exactly right. I've been referring to Pakistan as our "frenemy" for years now because, I've certainly gotten the impression that it has been more than willing to look the other way at best, and out and out aid Al Quaeda at worse.

zoosermom · Senior Member

This is a very good point from Victor Davis Hansen

I think we will see that ‘whatever’ attitude with Pakistan, whose yelps about violation of its airspace will soon give way to the reality that American public opinion considers it not an ally, not even a neutral, but a veritable enemy that has done more harm to this country than Cuba, North Korea, or Venezuela ever dreamed of. Should Obama wish to deal toughly with the Pakistanis, he has public support, and of course the option of much closer relations with India, in and outside of Afghanistan. The public wants the Pakistan two-step to end.

zoosermom · Senior Member

Obama deserves credit as Commander in Chief for this action. Period.

Bush deserves credit for laying the national security groundwork and creating the Guantanamo Bay detention facility at which the intelligence was gathered.

That's why we have a peaceful transfer of power and it's a beautiful thing.

Canuckguy · Veteran Member

Í am glad to see closure to 9/11, but he would not be the last until their grievance against us is resolved one way or another.

hayden · Senior Member

"Carter was not criticized for the helicopters failing and the mission failing. (If he was so critized, it was unjust). It wasn't his fault. What was his fault was the type of mission he proposed. His little raid would not have worked even if the helicopters had not failed. It was simply too small. " Well, was it his fault, or not that the mission failed?

So Carter was at fault because the type of mission he proposed failed. But Obama has no right to any credit, because his mission succeeded. Got it.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Yes, Reagan deserves credit for getting the hostages back. Why? He threated to kill every one of those barbarians and they knew he meant it. That is what carter should have done but he was too much of a wimp.

Oh please...They knew Reagan wouldn't be any more willing to risk the lives of the hostages than Jimmy Carter. His rhetoric was merely the bravado of a politician taking advantage of the rage-filled impatience and frustration of the American people in a cynical ploy to gain votes. How was he going to "Kill every one of those barbarians" without endangering the lives of those whom the "barbarians" could effectively use as shields? This wasn't The Old West. Iran knew that above all else, we needed those hostages released, safe and sound, and any military action against the compound in which they were being held, would almost certainly have resulted in an American hostage blood-bath.

Plus, by the time of their release, which conveniently coincided with the change in American Presidential Administrations, the hostage situation had been going on for almost two years, and much of the political advantage it afforded Iran was being eroded away by growning economic pressures, and the mounting crisis of incipient war with Iraq (whom we soon began to openly back). They were ready to release the hostages, and move on to more pressing issues. They most likely released them when they did in order to deal a final humiliating blow to the Carter Administration, denying it the satisfaction of claiming to have succeeded in ending the crisis prior to its departure, and with a view toward avoiding the hastle of having to deal with a whole new cast of players and negogiators in the newly installed Reagan Administration. It's absurd to believe that Governor Reagan's mere threat of military action struck fear in the hearts of the Iran's radicals. The truth was, by September 1980, much of what they'd wanted to accomplish by the taking of the hostages had already been accomplished; it had served to help powerfully shift the political dynamic within Iran. Any moderate factions within the government had effectively been pushed out and an Islamic extremist dictatorship was now being firmly established. As far as Khomeini and others were concerned, it was a fine time to end the hostage cat and mouse, and concentrate on the serious threat that was now War with Iraq.

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Monday 2nd of May 2011 11:03:20 PM

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Monday 2nd of May 2011 11:05:12 PM

poetgrl · Senior Member

I don't know, busdriver. He said something to the effect that it was a good call to send in the special forces team instead of sending in drones or bombs, or something like that. I didn't see it on TV, I saw it somewhere on the internet. But, he was pretty strongly praising the Commander in Chief, which is what he called him.

Razorsharp · Guru

Poetsheart wrote:
By the way, I'm willing to make book that you are one of those who credited Reagan for the hostages' release, and condemned Carter for the failure of the rescue mission.

Carter was not criticized for the helicopters failing and the mission failing. (If he was so critized, it was unjust). It wasn't his fault. What was his fault was the type of mission he proposed. His little raid would not have worked even if the helicopters had not failed. It was simply too small.

Yes, Reagan deserves credit for getting the hostages back. Why? He threated to kill every one of those barbarians and they knew he meant it. That is what carter should have done but he was too much of a wimp.

If you don't think Reagan deserves credit for getting the hostages back, please tell me why the "students" returned them? Were they simply in a good mood?

busdriver11 · Guru

"It was a widely held belief among the electorate at the time (contantly reinforced by GOP politicos), that Reagan was the man who'd gotten the hostages released, when in truth, it had been Carter who'd worked around the clock in the days leading up to the Inauguration in a desparate attempt to make the hostage release his last act as President."

One version I have heard was not that the hostages were released because of Reagan, or because of Carter's efforts, but that they held the release of the hostages up until Reagan's inauguration in order to humiliate Carter. If so, I suppose it worked.

soccerguy315 · Guru

there is apparently a guy who already wrote a book about SEAL team 6 that is supposed to be released in a couple weeks.

guess he got a big PR boost

Poetsheart · Senior Member

By the way, I'm willing to make book that you are one of those who credited Reagan for the hostages' release, and condemned Carter for the failure of the rescue mission. doh

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Jimmy Carter was not responsible for the helicopters crashing and I don't think he was blamed for that. Several military officers had their careers ended when that raid failed. Carter was criticized for approving a raid that would not have worked even if the helicopters had not crashed. Instead of launching a military offensive that would have ended the crisis, carter let a bunch of "students" humiliate American for 444 days.

Razor, you are the most gifted crafters of revisionist history of anyone I've encountered on the internet. Carter most certainly was widely blamed for the failure of that attempt to rescue the Iran hostages. And he took a tremendous hit for it. It was seen as the last nail in his political coffin. Conversely, Reagan was credited with having freed the hostages before he even took the oath of office, because many said the Iranians knew Reagan wouldn't sit by and allow the situation to continue. He was seen as a man's man (A national image aided, no doubt, by vestigial memories of all those Westerns he'd filmed as an actor evileye ), while there was nothing in the world Carter could have done to temper the image he'd acheived as an economic, diplomatic, and military weakling. I'll never forget the celebration that erupted around the country when the word went out that those hostages were on a plane headed West (this was taking place while Reagan stood with one hand on the Bible and the other in the air, mouthing the words to the Oath of Office). It was a widely held belief among the electorate at the time (contantly reinforced by GOP politicos), that Reagan was the man who'd gotten the hostages released, when in truth, it had been Carter who'd worked around the clock in the days leading up to the Inauguration in a desparate attempt to make the hostage release his last act as President.

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Monday 2nd of May 2011 07:52:34 PM

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Monday 2nd of May 2011 07:59:33 PM

hayden · Senior Member

Ah, here it is: Not a mililtary task force, but the CIA initiative, from the New York Times. The date of the piece is July 3, 2006, and it refers to the fact that the unit was dissolved "last year".

WASHINGTON, July 3 — The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday.

The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.

The decision is a milestone for the agency, which formed the unit before Osama bin Laden became a household name and bolstered its ranks after the Sept. 11 attacks, when President Bush pledged to bring Mr. bin Laden to justice "dead or alive."

busdriver11 · Guru

"Razorsharp-- Even Oliver North is giving the president credit for having made a brave choice. When Oliver North is saying he is impressed, I think we can all go ahead and agree he made a tough call, and he made the right choice"

I haven't been watching the news too much, so I didn't hear this. What specifically was a brave and right choice, and a tough call? It can't possibly be to kill OBL, because my dogs could have made that choice (see the pictures of them, they are vicious little bitches). Was it the burial at sea? That definitely was a smart choice. Was it the choice to send in the pros instead of a rocket? That seems like a smart choice too, to ensure the bad guy really gets it. It seems alot of times when they send in the missiles, the target gets missed. So what am I missing? I'm too lazy and busy to watch tv, I"ll count on you guys for my info!

hayden · Senior Member

The idea that Obama put bin laden in focus is nonsense. bush never took his focus from finding bin laden and created the military structure designed to find him."

Razorsharp, I may be mistaken, but I think I recall that the task force to find OBL was disassembled by Bush in 2005 and refocused on Iraq.

Yes, I like and respect Obama. But I don't applaud his actions here because I like him - I like him because I've always seen him as a strong leader capable of these actions.

I've been very critical of him up to now about Afghanistan. I had to admit to my husband that I was very disappointed because I had hoped that his first objective in Afganistan was to get OBL, not to just continue fighting the war for war's sake. Until now. (My husband, as some of you may recall, is a politician who works for a prominent Republican, so he was thrilled when I was so critical !) But now I'm back to being thrilled. And my husband says his boss is happy he decided not to run this time around . . .

longprime · Guru

I'm with Razor, which isn't too often.

Overall, I do believe that we still are in a mess of bL's making and to which is not clear if we will win (economy, polarizations, leadership, education, science (EPLES) etc)

poetgrl · Senior Member

Razorsharp-- Even Oliver North is giving the president credit for having made a brave choice. When Oliver North is saying he is impressed, I think we can all go ahead and agree he made a tough call, and he made the right choice.

Razorsharp · Guru

A decision Obama should get credit for was burying bin laden at sea. By doing so, there never can be a place for terrorists to have as a memorial place.

-- Edited by Razorsharp on Monday 2nd of May 2011 07:06:56 PM

Razorsharp · Guru

hayden wrote:
The point of my post was that those decision points which you just outlined are the job of a president. The decision to send in a task force instead of drone bombs is a pretty big decision. The risk of failure is great.
What you seem to be saying is that unless the president collects the intel himself, then jumps on the helocopter with a gun himself, he's not really involved. You may as well forget Churchill as a wartime leader, or Eisnehower as a general.
After Bush turned his attention from Afghanistan to Iraq, Obama came into office putting the emphasis back on catching Bin Laden. he set the strategy, apparently, back in June 2009, then put catching Bin Laden at the top of the to-do list as of last August 2010.
Presidents can't control large social movements, or huge economic events. But can you honestly say that we would have gone to war with Irag if anyone other than Bush had been president? Decislions are what presidents do.

It's an issue of the size of the decision. Going to war is a major decision for which Bush should get the credit or blame. Deciding to strike someone who had been the number one priority for over ten years was not a difficult decision to make. Would any president not have made that decision? I bet even carter would have made that decision.

The idea that Obama put bin laden in focus is nonsense. bush never took his focus from finding bin laden and created the military structure designed to find him.

Obama should get credit for making the decision, but frankly it was a no-brainer. Any president would have done the same. Bush certainly would have done so. I think those who want to give him so much credit are already Obama lovers.

I don't think it was any great triumph by Bush in finding Saddam. It was a great success for those military people who risked their lives and found him. I don't think what Obama has done is any different.

BigG · Guru

OK. President W. gets credited with Osama's death.

But President W. also gets all the blame for the world economic crisis, Wall Street meltdown, and implosion of the U.S economy.

That's fair. After all, his administration created the conditions for all of the above.

President O. merely failed to salvage what may be an unsalvageable situation.

CPR is useless once the corpse starts to rot.

-- Edited by BigG on Monday 2nd of May 2011 06:54:13 PM

hayden · Senior Member

The point of my post was that those decision points which you just outlined are the job of a president. The decision to send in a task force instead of drone bombs is a pretty big decision. The risk of failure is great. You say how could anyone decide not to do it? Well, according to the reports we have now (and things could change, but it's what they're saying now), there was a chance that Bin Laden wasn't there. Imagine what would have been the result if Bin Laden weren't there, and we had casualties - after having gone into Pakistan without telling them? Disaster time. It could easily have meant a foreign policy and US morale debacle, not to mention political suicide.

What you seem to be saying is that unless the president collects the intel himself, then jumps on the helocopter with a gun himself, he's not really involved. You may as well forget Churchill as a wartime leader, or Eisnehower as a general.

After Bush turned his attention from Afghanistan to Iraq, Obama came into office putting the emphasis back on catching Bin Laden. he set the strategy, apparently, back in June 2009, then put catching Bin Laden at the top of the to-do list as of last August 2010.

Presidents can't control large social movements, or huge economic events. But can you honestly say that we would have gone to war with Irag if anyone other than Bush had been president? Decislions are what presidents do.

Razorsharp · Guru

Well hayden exactly what did Obama do that was so great? The intelligence that lead to the success came from interrogations at Gitmo which Obama opposed. Correct me if I am wrong, but the structure of the military unit that got bin laden was created by Bush's people. When Obama was informed that the military though they had located bin laden, Obama's reaction was to say go ahead with the mission. Was it a difficult decision to decide to go and kill bin laden? I don't think so.

One decision Obama made was to send in a Seal team instead of just sending in a rocket. Obama was concerned that if bin laden was not there and civilians died there would be outrage. Maybe he should get credit for that decision. On the other hand, what if a Seal had died during the raid? You could argue a rocket would have been better and saved an American life.

Jimmy Carter was not responsible for the helicopters crashing and I don't think he was blamed for that. Several military officers had their careers ended when that raid failed. Carter was criticized for approving a raid that would not have worked even if the helicopters had not crashed. Instead of launching a military offensive that would have ended the crisis, carter let a bunch of "students" humiliate American for 444 days.

hayden · Senior Member

Hmm. That's a good point, razorsharp. When you put it that way, you wonder why Obama gets any credit at all.

If he had "little role", what was the role? Do you think they may have at least have let him know they were going in? Perhaps, if they were very nice, they even let Obama have a vote - along with the other seals, of course - on whether they would actually do the ops? And then there's the issue of whether to bomb with drones, or do an insertion/extraction. I wonder if they let him sit at the table and observe their decision-making. Or perhaps they saved him from that, and just let him know after the fact.

It must been such a relief knowing, as he must have, that he'd get the same sympathy and accolades that Carter did when his little op failed.

Razorsharp · Guru

Poetsheart wrote:
I can already imagine what Rush will say about Obama tomorrow. Fox is probably already scrambling to formulate spin that downplays Obama's roll in this accomplishment, no doubt.

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Sunday 1st of May 2011 10:57:07 PM

Obama had little role in this accomplishment. It was the Navy Seals and their commanders who made it happen. Other than happening to be President at the time, I fail to see why Obama should be given credit. I would have said the same thing if Bush was still president (God forbit).

Poetsheart · Senior Member

It would seem that the most scrambling that was done was those who couldn't resist the notion of attacking Beck, Rush and Fox before they even uttered a word about the situation.

Speak that into the microphone when I come back with links to the rot-mouth rhetoric that comes out of the mouths of the usual suspects.... hmm

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Monday 2nd of May 2011 01:18:36 PM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

We bought a copy for one of my sons - he has loaned it out to several of his buddies. Hoping he brings it home for summer, or I will have to download it to my kindle (and pay for it, again!)

Thanks for the reminder about this book!

highoverhead · Veteran Member

If you haven't read Lone Survivor by Marcus Luttrell (Navy Seal), you should. It's awesome. Those guys are insane! I heard him speak at a legal conference and I will never view things the same way again.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Best FB post of the day on my feed:

‎"...and in unrelated news, Chuck Norris recently returned from his vacation in Pakistan."

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

My D called from Delaware with the news and woke me up. I put on Fox News and that awful, vulgar, moronic Geraldo Rivera said "Obama is dead" and I swear to God my chest still hurts from that moment of terror. I hate, hate, hate Geraldo.

http://hiphopwired.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/fox-headline-fail.jpg?w=500&h=373

It wasn't just Geraldo.

ETA: Aren't people paid to make sure things like this don't happen? Or even scarier: did the person writing make a Freudian slip and actually want Obama dead? (Note: Not an attack at Fox.)

-- Edited by romanigypsyeyes on Monday 2nd of May 2011 08:17:56 AM

zoosermom · Senior Member

I'm so relieved, grateful and proud of our military. I'm also very glad none of my kids are in Manhattan right now. The security in Times Square is staggering and a stark reminder of what might be to come.

My D called from Delaware with the news and woke me up. I put on Fox News and that awful, vulgar, moronic Geraldo Rivera said "Obama is dead" and I swear to God my chest still hurts from that moment of terror. I hate, hate, hate Geraldo.

But this is a great, albeit bittersweet day. Now we need to get serious and honest about Pakistan.

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Osama Bin Laden is dead!!!!
News flash to the world - do not mess with us. If you do we will hunt you down and kill you - even if we go broke and it takes a decade. We did and it did.

I am so proud of our country and our military. I feel sorrow for the families whose lives were changed forever when their loved ones offered freely their Ultimate Sacrifice.

This morning - stock market is up and oil is down. My dad (smartest man I know) told me decades ago that the state of the economy is more about mood than $$$. Again - he is right. !

FFF · Veteran Member

Too bad for Osama that all the virgins have been previously bespoiled and all that is left for him is 42 sloppy seconds.

FFF · Veteran Member

Poetsheart wrote:
I can already imagine what Rush will say about Obama tomorrow. Fox is probably already scrambling to formulate spin that downplays Obama's roll in this accomplishment, no doubt.

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Sunday 1st of May 2011 10:57:07 PM

It would seem that the most scrambling that was done was those who couldn't resist the notion of attacking Beck, Rush and Fox before they even uttered a word about the situation.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

My theater group up at my U put on an awards ceremony/ball tonight in a basement theater tonight where no one gets phone signal. All of a sudden, someone ran into the theater and yelled "OMG OSAMA'S DEAD!" and ran out. Everyone thought he was kidding, but there was a mad rush to all the smart phones in the basement. We were all in shock.

I am at school so I don't have access to a TV right now (people sleeping). I also haven't heard the president's speech, but I'm glad it apparently went well. If nothing else, the country as a whole needs a morale boost.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

I can already imagine what Rush will say about Obama tomorrow. Fox is probably already scrambling to formulate spin that downplays Obama's roll in this accomplishment, no doubt.

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Sunday 1st of May 2011 10:57:07 PM

busdriver11 · Guru

"I should have resisted but I coudn't help looking at the comments by the loons on "The Blaze." Just the hate-filled, racist stuff I expected. They never fail to disappoint."

Yes, well, why bother look at comments. There's always a bunch of crazies on any site. Even reading yahoo comments you find them. But there is nothing loony or racist about the headlines on the Blaze about Osama's killing, so you can't blame Beck for that. It will be interesting to see how the conservative commentators deal with this tomorrow. Give credit where credit is due, or find something wrong?

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Interesting, isn't it Cartera, that they didn't delete the references to "Mission Accomplished" on that thread.... hmm

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Yes, yes, yes! Happy dance, happy dance! Now, anyone want to hazard a guess as to how long it'll take for them to close the Osama's Dead thread on CC? biggrin

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Sunday 1st of May 2011 09:54:06 PM

Cartera · Guru

Thanks Poetgrl, but it wasn't out of boredom. I really wanted to see how they were squirming about the idea that President Obama would get some credit for something. Fox wasn't doing their usual job because it happened when Geraldo was on.

DonnaL · Senior Member

I'm glad he's dead. About time.

poetgrl · Senior Member

Well, Cartera, if you were really that bored, I actually did paint a wall in my house today and would have allowed you to come on over and watch the paint dry. evileye

-- Edited by poetgrl on Sunday 1st of May 2011 09:27:08 PM

Cartera · Guru

The Blaze is Glenn Beck's online news site.

poetgrl · Senior Member

What is "the blaze" ?