Political & Elections

poetgrl wrote:

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Don't see anyone claiming the stripper was the victim.  Of anything.  But, in a sense, the stripper is kind of who cares?  I mean, does anyone really expect a drug addicted stripper to have some sort of moral high ground?  I sure don't.

Just questioning the judgement of a group of total idiots....but idiocy and serving underage drinkers is not something that ought to send you to jail.  I mean, I would really want my daughters hanging around that group.  Not.  But, unfortunately they can't put every ******* in prison until my daughters find the right guy.  Fortunately they seem to have better judgement, at this point in time. 

Sure the dead guy was the victim.  No doubt about it.  But, again, I feel like, if you move in with some drug addicted stripper, what do you expect?

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You equate stripping and drug addiction to moral failings?

 

Don't see anyone claiming the stripper was the victim.  Of anything.  But, in a sense, the stripper is kind of who cares?  I mean, does anyone really expect a drug addicted stripper to have some sort of moral high ground?  I sure don't.

Just questioning the judgement of a group of total idiots....but idiocy and serving underage drinkers is not something that ought to send you to jail.  I mean, I would really want my daughters hanging around that group.  Not.  But, unfortunately they can't put every ******* in prison until my daughters find the right guy.  Fortunately they seem to have better judgement, at this point in time. 

Sure the dead guy was the victim.  No doubt about it.  But, again, I feel like, if you move in with some drug addicted stripper, what do you expect?

This brings up the issue of why the Duke University Men's Lacrosse Team, a bastion of upper class and upper middle class jockdom if there ever was one, was employing such an inferior quality exotic dancer.

There are standards to be maintained, even in the selection of bawdy entertainment.

 

I agree, that all parties were at fault.

It is a bunch of what ifs?

What if she and every women on the planet refused to use their body?

What if schools really enforced the honor codes?

What if Duke didn't take a leap to guilt?

What if Nifong didn't pander to get elected?

What if, what if, what if?

The fact is WHAT IF exists in everyone's life.

The only way you don't get into that justice system is if you don't PLAY WHAT IF?


Yrs ago my brother said something to me, and it stuck. It stuck so much that I raised my kids with his comment. If you must hide the fact from anyone, than you know something is wrong morally.

Our kids was 5,3 and 1. I agree.

Off topic, but on point about my beliefs.

I understand that women strip for various reasons, but our society would prefer to hide it. Honestly, I find it degrading, but maybe if we remove it from the shadows we can actually protect them.

I watch Sister Wives on TLC. I would never ever be in a polygamous marriage, but again, honestly what is the difference between them, and a person who has a long term adulterous affair? One situation the husband can go to prison, the other situation society just turns a blind eye. I give that family credit for at least saying, we will no longer hide in the shadows because to us it is not morally wrong.

Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world. We force them to hide in shadows and get arrested. What does that accomplish?

Legally, in the state of NC you can hire strippers. The LAX players did not break any laws, they have broken the honor code at Duke, but no law in the state. There is a difference.

One is moral/ethical one is legal.

Crystal Mangum and Mike Nifong broke not only moral and ethical codes, but legal laws as stated in NC.

She perjured herself time and again re: the case. She had non-prescribed medicine in her possession.

Nifong manipulated facts to make a case. He blatantly lied saying she had only 1 DNA sample collected. Used tax dollars to hire an outside firm to find different DNA samples. Again, none of them were LAX players. Yet, he went forward with the case, which impo as a NC tax payer as FRAUD. He pleaded guilty in 07 for: criminal contempt for knowingly making false statements during the criminal proceedings.

The Police Dept's heirarchy also followed his lead with wasting tax payer dollars trying to manipulate a case based on pandering to the public. Here are some facts re: how the Durham police treat Duke kids.

Sgt. Mark Gottlieb, has unfairly targeted Duke students in the past, putting some of his investigational tactics into question. Gottlieb has made a disproportionate number of arrests of Duke students for misdemeanor violations, such as carrying an open container of alcohol. Normally, these violations earn offenders a pink ticket similar to a traffic ticket. From May 2005 to February 2006, when Sgt. Gottlieb was a patrol officer in District 2, he made 28 total arrests. Twenty of those arrests were Duke students, and at least 15 were handcuffed and taken to jail. This is in stark contrast to the other two officers on duty in the same district during that same 10-month period. They made 64 total arrests, only two of which were Duke students. Similarly, The News & Observer charges that Gottlieb treated nonstudents very differently. For example, he wrote up a young man for illegally carrying a concealed .45-caliber handgun and possession of marijuana (crimes far more severe than the Duke students who were taken to jail committed), but did not take him to jail. Residents complimented Gottlieb for dealing fairly with loud parties and disorderly conduct by students.

I am not affiliated at all with Duke, but I will say many parents in NC would send their kid to UNCCH faster than Duke, just because UNC is Chapel Hill, with the same prestige in the state, and Duke is Durham. Duke is beautiful, Durham isn't. UNC is beautiful and so is Chapel Hill. Same prestige in reality when it comes to graduation, not the same for the outlying town. No parent IMPO doesn't take that into consideration when selecting schools. Let's be honest, academics is #1, safety is 2. If academically they are close, than safety becomes the bigger issue.

Ironically because of Eve Carson's murder in 08 (UNCCH student), HS class of 09 floated back to Duke since the LAX situation was a faint memory.

We lived in NC at the time of the LAX team and the stripper. It was very interesting to watch the national news compared to the state news. A lot of things didn't make it into the national news, whereas, it made it to the local level. (Lived 50 miles from Duke).

In NC it was a powder keg because this was the same time as the lynching of a hs student on school grounds in the south right before a prom.

I will never condone the LAX players actions of hiring a stripper. However, it does take two to tango. This girl may have been a stripper due to economic reasons, but I lose pity when they do drug test her and she is positive. Did she strip for drugs? Remember in the case prior to her going there, police pulled her over, wrote a report on her saying she appeared to be disoriented and on drugs. They had no proof so she was released.

If I also recall correctly, the other stripper stated she did drugs in the bathroom as she prepared to do her "show". The other stripper was in the bathroom with her and visually witnessed it.

Again, as bus stated if they were 4 white kids on financial aid this would have never passed the sniff test.  They even ha testimony that the LAX players had facial hair, yet not one of the kids she named had any facial hair...she didn't realize that they were indeed affluent, and the lawyers hired by the parents took their alibis.  First thing they did was prove that they never had facial hair, including an ATM picture done that night prior to her arriving where one student was withdrawing money to pay for the strippers.  Also, the other stripper stated nobody there had facial hair.  Add 2 +2, she says they did, other stripper she witnessed her doing drugs prior, boyfriend admits having rough sex with her in the afternoon, and pictures prove that the boys didn't have facial hair.

She also lied about how long she had been doing this, because upon further research she had been doing this not for a few weeks, but close to a decade.  She had also done this same thing yrs earlier.

The DA was up for re-election and the Panthers were marching in Durham.  Durham is not wealthy, it Raleigh and Cary that is.  He was pandering for the votes.

Again, those guys were wrong in their actions, but there was a rush to judgment in their guilt.

The DA was fired, disbarred and sued by many. The LAX coach was fired, he sued the school and the DA. The 3 students that were "tagged" as the attackers also sued the school. They all were settled out of court, for millions. One of the players stated it succinctly, for the rest of his life any time any person googles his name it will appear in a negative light, and economically he took a hit for the rest of his life.

It also came out a few months later that she was pregnant and gave birth. I believe it was @ Dec. She had to have a paternity test done because she did not know who the father was, admitted none of the LAX players needed to be tested. If you recall she claimed rape, semen was found when they did the rape kit, but it was her BF's. Later the DA was forced to admit there were multiple DNA samples, but NOT ONE was a Duke player.  In other words, sex was not something she took a monogamous approach with in her life.

Mike Nifong tried to hide this.

She gets absolutely no pity from me.  She has ruined many persons lives without consideration. 

She got caught by cops and tried to talk her way out of trouble using this story.  End of subject.  She abused alcohol and drugs. I understand that there are many women who unfortunately must strip to pay the bills, and that is the only reason.  I am just not biting off that she is one of them.  I think we as a society failed her, because if a person is selling their body for a "substance habit", and would not be there except for the addiction, we failed them as a society.

I also believe the girl has emotional issues, but again do these issues exist due to the effects of an indiction, or do the exist because of pre-existing mental issues that were never diagnosed.

Either way, the Pres of Duke, Duke LAX coach, LAX team, Mike Nifong, and the Durhman Chief of Police were marred forever.

-- Edited by pima on Monday 18th of April 2011 07:50:53 AM

Busdriver wrote:  We don't expect our police officers and our prosecutors to be the bad guys. There are plenty of examples of fatigue, error, misunderstanding, and case overloads. But when those whose job it is to protect and defend purposefully use their position and influence to attempt to send people whom are not guilty of a crime to jail? That is such an abuse of power, and there is no deserving it because they should have known better to get involved in activities like that. One may not neccessarily expect protection of the law in all cases, but nobody should get persecuted by it to enhance someone's re-election campaign.

While I agree with you in principle, I also happen to be from Chicago. 

-- Edited by poetgrl on Saturday 16th of April 2011 06:54:03 PM

Nobody should be prosecuted for political reasons, but the Duke lacrosse team was neither the first nor last victim of prosecutors trying to get a win for political reasons.  "The Thin Blue Line" is a documentary about a guy convicted in Texas of killing a police officer largely because the juvenile who actually did it could not be given the death penalty.  While a "joke," the prosecutor there was heard to boast, "any prosecutor can convict a guilty man, it takes a great prosecutor to convict an innocent man."  Whenever prosecutors start paying attention to "conviction rates," there is potential for cutting corners to gain convictions. 

Prosecutors clearly push cases for poltical reasons all of the time.  While there is no question that government misconduct is not one of the things one should expect when hiring strippers for a frat party, it is in fact a foreseeable risk.  Now, just imagine if they were not wealthy young men with access to the best criminal defense that money could buy, but poor youth without resources relying upon public defenders who are not paid enough to thoroughly investigate each case.  That happens all too frequently as well, only those kids end up with criminal records.

I am not sure where you got the idea that I was defending the prosecutor.  While I shorthanded it as "overzealousness," I called it criminal conduct in my first paragraph.  I am appalled by his abuse of government power.

Well, Eliot Spitzer did not go to prison, but his call girl did.  Justice?

Charlie Sheen and the other well-connected clients of Heidi Fliess did not go to prison, but she did.  Justice?

That's the problem with this kind of thing.  You're never dealing with justice, you're dealing in relativities.  We could go on to speak of people who do not pay taxes but work for the government....but you and i?  Prison.

So, yeah, I think the guy should be in jail, but I don't think people should assume, once they start dealing with prostitutes, that they are going to be "protected" by the law, either.  YMMV 

Busdriver, while you may not consider hiring strippers (not going to a club, but hiring strippers to come to you) to be "risky" behavior, it is actually a part of the sex trade, once they leave the premises of a club, and, really, even though we call it entertainment, it is still a part of the sex trade even IN a regulated club.  Anytime anyone is dealing with the sex trade?  They are dealing with prostitutes and drug addicts and they are engaging in risky behavior.  Whether they are in college or in Hong Kong. 

 

I don't feel empathy for Ms. Mangum.

I feel empathy for the strippers that do need the few hundred bucks or so per night and are honorable and professional about earning it.

 

You're right, poetgrl, living on the edge you can get cut. But I guess we will just have to disagree that hiring strippers for a party is living on the edge, especially for young college guys. If my son's fraternity hired strippers for a party (and I sincerely doubt they would), I'd just roll my eys and say, "you morons." But I wouldn't consider it crazy, wild and risky behavior.

And who knows if every one of the accused lacrosse players even arranged or was aware there would be strippers, it seems that their main crime was that they were on the team and therefore in the photo lineup presented.

"Showing up for work clean and sober, then shaking your booty to contribute to the "liberal educations" of a few young gentlemen and thereby relieving them of a bit of their disposable income in an honest manner should not be shameful."

Perhaps, it was merely a business arrangement, entertainment provided for services. But of course, she was drugged out and didn't even remember all the people she had sex with that day, not clean and sober.

I feel sorry for the reasonably ethical and reputable "exotic dancers" who have had their employment prospects and income reduced by the lacrosse travesty.

Showing up for work clean and sober, then shaking your booty to contribute to the "liberal educations" of a few young gentlemen  and thereby relieving them of a bit of their disposable income in an honest manner should not be shameful.

But the abusive verbiage of some of the students was wrong.

Would Teddy Roosevelt at that age have insulted a women, any woman, like that?

But how did Broadhead survive this failure of leadership? Abusing the paying customers for no good reason is death for any organization.

 

 

 

When that woman went up to Mike Tyson's hotel room and then said she was raped, I believed her.  But, I also thought, "You are an idiot."

I wasn't one who wanted to run out and get the rope for the LaCrosse team, but I thought, even when I heard they weren't guilty of raping the stripper, "You are a bunch of idiots."

When my daughter left for college, I let her know the statistics:  that 1 in 4 women will experience a sexual assault on US college campuses, that alcholol and/or drugs will be involved in about 3/4 of these cases, that it is likely to be someone you know. 

I feel for these boys in the same way that I feel for the thousands of girls who are date raped at fraternity parties every year and have their lives ruined by it.

"What the hell were you thinking?"  Is what I would say to any of those boys if they were my son. 

Duke has had, for a very long time, maybe five decades, at least, one of THE worst town-gown problems of any school in the country, if not THE worst.

There are a lot of reasons for this. 

I believe in innocent until proven guilty, as you know.  But I'm still unimpressed by the behavior of the lacrosse team that night.  I find saying they didn't rape the stripper a lot like saying they didn't murder anyone.  Big whoop. 

As for this clearly disturbed woman?  She was a pawn in a game the town has been playing with Duke students for a very, very long time.  Also a pawn in a game the Duke students have been playing as well.  If she is a murderer, I'll just wait and see the verdict, myself.