"Ya ever see a college or prep school president shmoozing with a major donor?"
Yep, and he gave us 40+million. But I don't think he got treated with kid gloves, he doesn't seem to be interested in that. But that's kind of how we are out here in the wild west.
This ain't my cup a tea...but I wouldn't mind at all if celebrities of the likes of Lindsay Lohan, Phil Spector, Michael Moore, Heath ledger (too late), Charlie Sheen, Curt Cobain (too late), etc, etc, etc, got involved with some kind of crazy cult or loopy religion like Scientology or... who knows…the Wiccans that at least pretended to some sort of ethos or even marginally civilized behavior.
Not so much blackmail, busdriver, as bribery. There are special, luxurious "churches" just for stars. The New Yorker article explains how stars are treated specially.
Here's my slightly educated guess, Razorsharp, I've always wondered that. One strong possibility is blackmail. They keep massively detailed files on everyone, with whatever personal information they can delve out of you in "counseling" sessions. Another guess is that they might have told these people they are some sort of gods, in the Scientology world. Which of course, would appeal to that kind of personality.
We bought our house when we got married, from some Scientologists. (To give you an idea of how long ago that was, our son was born three years later.) To this day, we are still getting about five pieces of mail a week from the Scientologists. It's all complete and utter crap, and moreover, it has some of the worst graphic design I've ever seen, with ugly, garish photos and an an ugly, garish layout.
College age students are a perfect marketing tool. Suck them in while they are experiencing the inevitable self-doubt and yearnings of beginning adulthood.
I don't have time to read the article now, but I have experience with Scientology. They sucked me in briefly when I was in college, convincing me to take a "study" class that would help with my schoolwork.
I quit halfway into it. But I learned enough about the cult in that short time. They keep detailed records on everyone, speaking with you, asking personal questions, as if they are psychologists. I am certain there is plenty of blackmail going on. Their classes are unbelieveably expensive, but they figure out how to look in every nook and cranny to get your money. In my case, since my family was poor and I had nothing in my bank account, they discovered the one item I owned that had value (a silver trumpet), and convinced me to sell it. And went with me to the bank while I cashed the check for it.
Their basic philosophy is that we are all aliens....Thetans. And with their specialized techniques, they can release your spirit (or whatever, it was a long time ago--you will then be a "Clear"). This counseling is very, very expensive--for no particular reason, the people that do it get paid very little. When they started getting off the study courses and into this BS, I decided I was outta there. My money that was supposedly completely refundable? They refused to refund, of course. My parents got mail from them for over 20 years, they never stopped till I called them and told them I thought it was all crap, and they were wasting their stamps. This is a creepy, twisted group of pathetic people. I can't believe they are still functioning.
You're right, BigG. Nobody knows if there was a Moses, let alone a mass exodus from Egypt. Or 400 years of slavery there. Outside of the Hebrew Bible (that part of which was amost certainly written hundreds of years later) there's no archeological evidence for any of it, beyond one Egyptian hieroglyphic inscription saying something to the effect that "Israel was laid waste."
There is independent archaeological evidence (a couple of inscriptions from neighboring kingdoms) that there was a King David and a House of David, but not that the kingdom he and his son ruled was particularly wealthy or powerful.
Mormonism is fascinating. Their religious beliefs are truly bizarre and believing Joseph Smith's work requires an astounding suspension of disbelief and passing over his sexual appetites and multiple marriages.
On the other hand, their beliefs also result in the majority of them being self-disciplined, hardworking, well-educated, and accomplished in the arts or athletics - truly all-American type successes. Their religion has had issues with race and distrust of outsiders, but it produces a large percentage of upstanding citizens. I don't admire their beliefs but I do admire the results that they achieve.
-- Edited by Bogney on Thursday 10th of February 2011 10:40:36 PM
-- Edited by Bogney on Friday 11th of February 2011 07:56:10 AM
I stand by my point about age lending credibility.
The critical thing about a religion is not the credibility of the "miracles" associated with its founding, but how well its adherents function in larger society over time.
Judaism has certainly "stood the test of time".
Mainstream Christianity is trending in the right direction although some reactionary fundamentalists are disturbing.
Yes, Cardinal Fang, that was interesting. Not that it was exactly a huge shocker to learn that L. Ron Hubbard's war heroism and war wounds were a fabrication, as was his supposed self-cure of those wounds by means of Dianetics.
Next you'll be telling me that Joseph Smith didn't really find golden tablets with Egyptian hieroglyphics on them under a tree in upstate New York.
If you are absolutely, positively convinced you are right, what room is there for faith or reason?
I think your third point comes into play when the stricture we placed on our children is violated; "No hostile mass, momentum, energy or information transfer between sentients."
-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 9th of February 2011 09:38:23 PM
Big GL I generally agree with your point; however, there is a big difference between: 1) You'e going to go to hell if you do not believe what I do 2) You are not a reasonable and intelligent person if you do not think like I do. and 3) you are not a reasonable and intelligent person for believing what you believe.
The first two are generally unreasonable propositions. The third is not necessarily and that would be the position of non- relgious persons to fundamentalists. Certainly, some virulently anti-religious persons might apply that to all religious belief, and your point would apply. However, not calling extreme religions on their bizarre and harmful beliefs allows them legitimacy that they do not deserve.
Nothing I have ever read in your posts, or Bullet's posts, suggests that religious belief clouds your judgment. Religious belief clearly clouds the judgment of Islamic terrorists, Westborough Baptists, fundamentalist Mormons, etc. The more fundamental the religious belief, the more detached from reality it is and the more people should speak out against it rather than "honor" the depth of belief.
A relative lost one of his best friends because of Scientology. His friend asked him to attend a meeting, supposedly not in order to convert him but as a gesture of support. It was no doubt a requirement for this guy to bring someone along. He agreed at first and then came to his senses and decided that it was a bad idea. Despite his sincere apologies and heartfelt explanations, the friend was just infuriated, a reflection of the kind of pressure they put him under to recruit new members. The wives are still close friends, but the ex-friend barely speaks to him to this day. It's a cult, nothing less.
The article isn't up to the New Yorker's usual standards of writing. Maybe it was chopped up by the fact-checkers, whose hand is visible throughout. I suppose when attacking a suit-happy group like the Scientologists, the New Yorker had to be extra careful.
The end was the strongest part, as the writer demolished Scientology's claims about the war heroism of founder L. Ron Hubbard.
"The more venerable (aged sense), the more credible" generally holds for religions. Until they get really old, then they are myths. Who worships Tammuz or Ra anymore? The senescence of faith could be a good essay or even book. References anyone?
As the miracles associated with their founding recede into history, and as the societal impact of their contributions become apparent, religions acquire a degree of credibility. They generally use this to attack newcomers who in turn must prove their worth and faith. Social darwinism in the pew, on the prayer rug and from the pulpit.
I am Christian and modern Christianity is generally a "functional" faith. It helps to order society and get the cows milked, the vaccines produced and the forests managed.
The real problem with any faith, or lack thereof, is the development of the "my way is the only way" meme.
You gonna go to hell if you don't go to my church! You are not a reasonable and intelligent person if you don't think like I do! Unbelivers aren't really human!
It's long (26 pages, and I'm not finished with it) but fascinating.
There's been quite a bit of advance publicity for this article, particularly for the news that the FBI has apparently been investigating the Church of Scientology for violation of the federal anti-trafficking laws, based on all the stories that have been out there for quite some time about certain Church members being used as the equivalent of slave labor.
-- Edited by DonnaL on Tuesday 8th of February 2011 10:17:56 AM
