Political & Elections

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

RE: Mom Jailed for Enrolling Her Children in a Better School

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Just because they aren't native English speakers doesn't mean they haven't been in the school system long enough to be fluent in English. This is not the SAT. It's a basic standardized test on subjects they are studying in school.

But yes, this could account for some of the proficiency-issues.

Culture can take a long time to change in schools. Sometimes it never does. There are schools that are 10 and schools that are 1, and the differences between the two on the spectrum can be miles.

It really comes down to kids wanting to learn and seeing the point to getting an education. A kid can be in a dumpy high school or the nicest, shiniest school and if they don't care, it becomes a nearly foregone conclusion that they won't make it with academic success. Teachers can only do so much.

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

They only give it to 10th graders and according to this:
http://api.cde.ca.gov/AcntRpt2008/2008APRSchAYPReport.aspx?allcds=19647330112029
enrollment in 2007-08 was 1325 and there were 371 10th graders. The only grade in high school to take this test is 10th grade.

I 'suspect' when folks count 2500 students they are also counting the LA school of global studies.

About the pool - you can't build a beautiful pool and expect people who have never swam to embrace it. This doesn't mean there is no interest. It takes a long time to change culture - you have to start young with the kids and of course win the parent's trust. Parent's who likely have never swam before.

As to scores - note that 98% are English learners. English is not their first language and not spoken in the home.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Thanks for catching that, justamom. I was rushing before heading to work and didn't double check it!

Still, on the Contreras link, why only 375 kids taking the test? Out of 2500 students, if you take out the kids from my other link, where were those other kids?

On both English and Math, they still only are proficient at 32-24%. This is not acceptable.

Nice buildings and small learning groups, as the new educational trends seem to enourage don't necessarily create learners. So what is the answer? Engaged teachers and students, parental support and safe schools. What helps make a school go from underperforming to performing?

If money isn't the answer, than what is? Writing off all those kids is surely a recipe for disaster.

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Friday 11th of February 2011 03:21:45 PM

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Clearly, the lack of a state of the art swimming facility is not the sole reason for the 50% dropout rate in our inner city schools.
To think that building one will rectify the situation and knock down the barriers to school attendance and performance is faulty thinking.

SLS - Go and look at the stats on that last link. Why in a school of 2500 students, are only 100+ students participating in these tests which help determine how much money the school gets from the state?

Your link takes you to the LA School for Global Studies which is a magnet school at MCLC. This school is considerably smaller than MCLC.
Here is the school report for Miguel Contreras:
http://api.cde.ca.gov/AcntRpt2008/2008APRSchAYPReport.aspx?allcds=19647330112029

-- Edited by justamomof4 on Friday 11th of February 2011 11:59:38 AM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

In South Central LA, there are numerous excellent swim facilities. However, if the students aren't interested, they aren't going to ever dominate in those sports.

Just this last summer, the Junior Olympics for Boys and Girls Water Polo was held at several of these sites throughout the downtown area of Los Angeles. I spent a great deal of time at several of these this summer, including two state of the art brand new facilities in the Los Angeles Unified School District. At one of these schools, Contreras Learning Center, there is a state of the art swim facility with an Olympic sized pool, stadium bleachers and located on a brand new campus that cost 161 million to build just a few years ago. President Obama visited there just after his inauguration.

Here is the link to the wiki entry for this school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Contreras_Learning_Complex

Here is the interesting part - back in 2007, they had this exquisite pool - but couldn't fund lifeguards to help the community actually use it when school isn't in session. It's in the heart of Los Angeles, a stones' throw from Chinatown and would serve the underserved population. Kids would be able to learn to swim and stay fit with water sports, including water polo and swimming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vwsD52EQOg

So they build this amazing facility and didn't think about this? They spent a small fortune on that pool and school facility and didn't come up with a plan to use it over the school breaks? It's chump change - paying a lifeguard $13 an hour to fund community swimming. Fortunately, the city of Los Angeles stepped in back in 2008 to help provide funding for these off-hours swimming times.

Part of the idea of hosting in these pools was that club teams would help mentor these schools and get them training in the aspects of the game, coach (our coaches have volunteered their time to train new coaches). This facility has one of the nicest pools I have EVER seen - and I have seen a lot over the years. And yet, they don't have interest from the students to play the game.

Or even swim.

Of course, swimming and water polo aren't a huge priority when these kids aren't learning how to read or do math. The culture for other sports is much more dominant.

Just a couple miles from this campus is USC, which is dominant in many sports - including water polo. They have one of the most winning coaches in the NCAA willing to mentor the kids at this school through his club coaches help volunteer their time to help these new schools get experience running programs. And still, not a lot of interest.

It's not for lack of funding. So what is it? Why does a school like this not even meet basic standards of educational growth? Why are they losing points in the academic index? API scores are huge in California for public schools. Schools must reach a certain target. They are declining in their scores.

http://api.cde.ca.gov/AcntRpt2008/2008APRSchAYPReport.aspx?allcds=19647330112870

They had a 62.9% graduation rate in 2007, but increased it to 96.4% in 2009. Awesome, right?

Go and look at the stats on that last link. Why in a school of 2500 students, are only 100+ students participating in these tests which help determine how much money the school gets from the state?

More money doesn't necessarily change the culture of a school, even a brand new gorgeous state of the art facility. Even with excellent teachers and a modified teacher union arrangement, still only 3% of the students score at proficient in Math and only 21% scored at proficient in English.

There is the problem.

Here is an article in an education blog that actually has Obama's speech when he spoke at Contreras:

http://www.joannejacobs.com/tag/miguel-contreras-learning-complex/

Reform for money

MARCH 19, 2009 BY JOANNE JACOBS

It’s not just the money, said President Obama, answering a question a his town hall meeting yesterday at a Los Angeles high school.

. . . you can’t just be talking more money, more money, without also talking about how are we going to reform and make the system better. (Applause.) There’s got to be a reform agenda in exchange for the money. (Applause.) There’s got to be a reform agenda in exchange for the money.
So don’t just say, give us more money or smaller classrooms — but you’re not willing to consider, for example, how are we going to do better assessments; or how are going to — how are we going to work to improve teacher performance; and if a teacher is not improving, how do we get them to choose a different career, right? (Applause.) I mean, there’s got to be — there’s got to be some serious conversation about that.
. . . Parents — (applause) — you can’t complain about the schools and complain about the teachers, but when your child comes home, they’re playing video games and not doing homework, and you don’t have time to go to your teacher and parent — teacher-parent meeting. Our parents have to instill a sense of excellence and a thirst for knowledge.

Chinese and Indian students “don’t have better facilities, but they’re out-performing us in math and science,” Obama said. Parents need to demand “higher performance from our kids,” he said.

To paraphrase Jerry Maguire, show me the reform! Show me the reform! In legislation, not just exhortation.

Obama spoke at Miguel Contreras Learning Complex, “touted as a model of urban-education reform” for its smaller classes, increased autonomy and innovative programs,” notes the LA Daily News.

The school is also set to lose half of its teachers and a large portion of its administrators next year, and only half of its seniors graduate in four years.
. . . Opened in 2006, Miguel Contreras is an experiment in creating small learning communities out of large urban campuses. Serving about 2,000 students, teachers work under modified union contracts that give them more decision-making power. The school also has more flexibility on how it spends its money.
Such innovation drew young teachers and administrators who ironically are now targeted for layoff for lack of seniority.

In its first two years, the school didn’t meet performance goals: “Three percent of the student body is proficient or better in math, according to the district’s school report card, while 21 percent scored proficient in English.”

However, the school is “newly upgraded and beautiful looking,” writes Alexander Russo.

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Friday 11th of February 2011 08:19:34 AM

BigG · Guru

But poor people don't play water polo, can't swim well and are hopeless at equestrian sports....

-- Edited by BigG on Friday 11th of February 2011 02:54:37 AM

Bogney · Senior Member

Geeps: Just imagine . . . and no religion too. smile

I never claimed that my solution would necessarily make the poor schools better, just make the system of public schools more fair. I keep hearing from people that the poor schools get more money, but where I live the school facilities clearly reflect the income of the school district. Water polo teams, swim teams, etc. tend to be a wealthy bay area district phenominon rather than a rural or poor urban staple. The student body is the most important aspect of a school.

BigG · Guru

Just recently America's future income was put into a big pot and given to Wall Street.

Both Democrats and republicans were responsible.

geeps20 · Senior Member

why stop there Bogney. Let's put every single American's income into one big pot as well and divide equally...heck through in the illegals too,there physically here.

BigG · Guru

Busdriver11 makes good points.

Money does not help when peer group interactions discourage academic achievement.

Peer groups are far more important to a young person's "sense of self" than we like to admit. Strong families can, to an extent, overcome peer group pressures. But the main problem with bad schools is weak or non-existent families.

The best thing to do for all students is to place them in an environment where learning is a virtue. That is the main reason folks who can afford it put their kids in private, parochial, or good public schools.

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Bogney wrote:

State by state, put all of the education money in a big pot, and divide by the number of public schools, adjusting for student population and cost of living to provide equally funded schools, if not equal schools. The schools with the better students will still be far superior, but they should not have every advantage. The wealthier students might move off to private schools opening up more opportunity for bright kids from the wrong side of the tracks to fill those slots in the better public schools. Problem solved. Thank you, thank you, thank you . . . .

That would require amending the constitutions of many states. As I said earlier, some states do this - i.e. North Carolina.
In other states, the state constitution reqiuires local tax dollars and local control over education.
This, of course, has it's plusses and minuses. Communities with strong and active public schools like this. They like deciding if their school will have a Varsity football team or offer Algebra I to all 8th graders.
In the process of providing 'equal' schools, the unintended consequence might be equally bad schools.
In states that have local control over education, parents have a vested interest to be involved.

Age of majority - Here in PA a minor has to emancipate himself/herself in court prior to age 18. At 18 and above, you still need a parent/guardian to be responsible for you. This is written into the school code. Also, emancipation requires that the student be able to support himself/herself. They need to have income and show they are paying the rent.

This woman had options that were within the rules, including making her father the chilrens' guardian. For whatever reason, she did not choose that option.

busdriver11 · Guru

That actually sounds like it would be within the rules to me. Doesn't involve falsification, and I'll bet that 18 year old girl spent some time there. Seems like someone who would go through such efforts, to make it legal would probably care enough about her education to do very well in school.

inthenews · Veteran Member

One of my children knows a girl who came to this country from overseas several years ago. They rented an apartment in the our school district for several years and then bought a house for far less than they could have here, in the neighboring town. Because she was 18 this year, the young woman declared herself independent and continued to rent the apartment in her own name so that she could remain for her senior year. Of course, she is probably not really living there at all. Years ago, this kind of thing went on all the time and as long as the student wasn't a troublemaker, the school would look the other way.

busdriver11 · Guru

A bit of a problem with your solution, Bogney. Some of the worst performing schools are getting the most money. And it still isn't helping. More money does not equal better schools. Higher paid, strongly unionized teachers does not equal better schools. Trying to force wealthier/higher performing kids out of public schools does not equal better schools. The educational prowess follows the student, not the building.

Two parent families=better schools
More educated parents=better schools
More school choice=better schools
School vouchers for families that care about education, no matter their income level=better schools

Abyss · Senior Member

Bogney wrote:

State by state, put all of the education money in a big pot, and divide by the number of public schools, adjusting for student population and cost of living to provide equally funded schools, if not equal schools. The schools with the better students will still be far superior, but they should not have every advantage. The wealthier students might move off to private schools opening up more opportunity for bright kids from the wrong side of the tracks to fill those slots in the better public schools. Problem solved. Thank you, thank you, thank you . . . .

Oh, you mean like vouchers? Yeah, sounds like a good idea.

Bogney · Senior Member

State by state, put all of the education money in a big pot, and divide by the number of public schools, adjusting for student population and cost of living to provide equally funded schools, if not equal schools. The schools with the better students will still be far superior, but they should not have every advantage. The wealthier students might move off to private schools opening up more opportunity for bright kids from the wrong side of the tracks to fill those slots in the better public schools. Problem solved. Thank you, thank you, thank you . . . .

BigG · Guru

Vouchers would have to involve federal money taxed from rich districts, borrowed from the Chinese, or printed by the Fed.

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

The citizen's in the school district operate the schools. They vote on the school board who makes the decision on whom to hire, how much to pay them, what curricula to use, educational polciy, which building to build or not build, which athletics and activities to offer and pay for.

How would vouchers work for out of district kids? Would their district who spends $8000/year/child give them $8000 to attend a district that spends $10,000/year/child?
What if 200 kids from another district showed up with vouchers and the district was forced to add onto a school?

amazing · Veteran Member

justamomof4 wrote:

Tom - as I stated in my post; vouchers are only good within the school district. They are not transferrable from one district to another.
Frankly, as long as the citizens of a school district are footing the bill for the kids in that district they should not have to accept kids from outside the district - vouchers or not.

-- Edited by justamomof4 on Sunday 30th of January 2011 12:28:45 PM

Ok, I really don't think your getting the point about vouchers.

Sure vouchers may "as of this moment" (under whatever rules/laws that you are refering to) not be transferrable from one district to another. But what if, in theory, they were? This would make sure that everyone pays into the school district that they are sending their kids to, and that no one is "footing the bill" for someone else.

Would this proposed idea work? Or are there problems with vouchers that would make them infeasible?

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Tom - as I stated in my post; vouchers are only good within the school district. They are not transferrable from one district to another.
Frankly, as long as the citizens of a school district are footing the bill for the kids in that district they should not have to accept kids from outside the district - vouchers or not.
This woman had options - she could have made her father the childrens' guardian, she could have moved. She could have effected positive change in her own school district. She chose to cheat and lie. She committed fraud. There is nothing noble in this.

Bogney - let's have that discussion..... the one about poor districts vs rich districts.

Perhaps jail is a little steep - however she falsified documents and this comes with the penalty of jail and she knew it. She took the risk and she pays the price. Rules are rules and while they seem superfulous or unfair - they are rules for a reason.

Most of these parents don't really have ambition. They want their kids out of a certain school. Sometimes their child did not get a long with a teacher or got too many detentions - it's always the teacher or administrations fault and never the kid's fault. The easy way is to lie about residency and move the kid. Sometimes it's about laziness - they want the kid to spend the night with Grandma during the week etc.
Sometimes it's about sports - they want their kids to play football.

>>>Trying to improve the system so that poor parents can send their high achieving kids to good schools seems like a good idea for libs or cons

-- Edited by justamomof4 on Sunday 30th of January 2011 12:28:45 PM

Bogney · Senior Member

Geeps: libs are no more monolithic than cons. However, this lib would like to see the discussion about distribution of tax funds / segregation of rich students into enclaves of hyper achieving public schools, leaving others unable to compete. Abyss' comment earlier about the student body making all of the difference is pretty close to right - though decent teachers and facilities are also beneficial.

The woman lied and broke the law, so she should be punished - though jail seems pretty steep. America is filled with people who cut corners to get ahead. Some historians believe that is a national trait evident throughout our history - see "Freedom Just Around the Corner" by Walter McDougal. Cutting corners leads to cheating and innovation. We do not follow rules well as a society - and therefore find new ways to achieve what we want with little regard for propriety. This disregard for rules is presumably going to change the way music and movies are sold because of illegal downloading. We should start equalizing teaching by downloading the best public school teacher classes and making them available to all students.

I personally do not like it. We read reports of student cheating, often at the best schools, on the SATs, etc. Their parents on Wall Street certainly have little compunction about dishonest tactics to get ahead. Poor or middle class families cheating to get ahead is more understandle to me than the rich cheating to get richer. Illegal aliens are presumably animated by the same impulse. They have sufficient ambition to cheat about citizenship to try to improve their lives. Again, I find that more understandable than the corporate skulldugery that seems to occur on a regular basis.

Trying to improve the system so that poor parents can send their high achieving kids to good schools seems like a good idea for libs or cons.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

How about vouchers?

geeps20 · Senior Member

^libs don't want to hear that..they only see a situation where one public school system is better, so any kid should be able to attend. They are good at pointing out what should be, but not very good at realizing that many things are financially not feasible...but that sure doesn't stop them.

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

I am happy she was jailed. She broke the law.
Folks - this is how it works...

In Ohio as in some other states such as Pennsylvania..... local schools are funded for the most part by LOCAL taxes; i.e. property taxes.
Here in my district about 80% of all public school funding comes from local taxes. The people who live in the school district pay for the schools.

The Law says that the kids must attend school in the district where the parent/guardian lives. To LIE or falsify documents is ILLEGAL.

In my school district, it would shock you to know how much money we are required to spend to maintain accurate residency documents and to ferret out kids who are attending our schools illegally. We must do it to comply with the PA school code and because our buildings are very over crowded.
It is just not fair to the kids who legitimately live in the community to suffer from large classes and over crowded because parents LIE about their address.

If a parent wants to send their child to a particular public school - they just need to MOVE.

If you want to discuss the dispartiy in public school districts - i.e. rich districts vs poor districts that is certainly a discussion worth having. But it is not germain to this story at all.

Vouchers - different states have different rules. Here in PA you can only move to a different school within the same district. The vast majority of our districts are very small - one to 5 towns and have a limited number of schools; or even only one school per grade, hence no "choice".

Bogney · Senior Member

She is an illegal alien in the good school district. She should be jailed and then deported to her own miserable school distrcit for the unimitigated audacity of trying to improve the chances for her kids going to public school. She should have known that her children were not worthy of the best public schools because their parents could not afford to live in the best neighborhoods. Those public schools are reserved for the elite public school students from the best familiies after all. Those who cannot afford to fund public schools so well, or live in neighborhoods with the most affluent, should know their place at the lesser public schools. harrumph!

longprime · Guru

BigG wrote:
When I observe the success of various Wall Street firms, it makes me think that lying might be the most valuable skill in our society.

WS firms only "lie" when caught. yawn

Until they do get caught, the WS firms just didn't know better. evileye

Grimmy says so. smile

-- Edited by longprime on Friday 28th of January 2011 08:55:03 PM

-- Edited by longprime on Friday 28th of January 2011 08:56:09 PM

longprime · Guru

BigG wrote:
When I observe the success of various Wall Street firms, it makes mes think that lying might be the most valuable skill in our society.

The one thing that I learned in this last bubble and should've learned in the Tech Bubble, is that Wall Street firms tend to have a herd mentality: The brightest beast is the 'tail-end charlie.' The dumbest beast is the one that is fousted or aspired to lead.

The remaindering animals are destined for meatloaf. evileye

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:
Would vouchers fix this or would the few good public schools be swamped?

Students make the school. End of story.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Just this week in our school district, I was made aware of two students (siblings) who have been asked to leave because they were an illegal "permit".

We offer permit spots to people outside our district.

Many follow the rules. Some don't.

I have worked in this area for a number of years and rarely seen the district enforce this rule. Every parent signs a form saying that "I live at this address and herby verify that the student is a legal resident who resides at this address". At the bottom of that letter, it basically says that if the school finds out that the student doesn't reside at that address, than the student would be asked to leave and the parents would be liable for 2 times the amount it costs to educate the student.

I have never heard of anyone being charged the fee, but as I said, rarely seen this enforced.

geeps20 · Senior Member

well, if it was all about the kids education, then she could have given custody to the father who lived in the district..just saying

BigG · Guru

Good point in that last sentance.

If she had been an illegal, no one would have dared to prosecute.

berurah · Senior Member

BigG wrote:
They have POWER, she has none.

Only the "elite" get to better themselves through dishonesty. The "little people" get chewed up and spit out.

And the citizens. Everyone seems to understand and be sympathetic to the motivations of illegal immigrants who break all kinds of laws for the hope of providing a better life for themselves and their children. It's just the poor American citizens who are jailed for daring to do the same.

BigG · Guru

They have POWER, she has none.

Only the "elite" get to better themselves through dishonesty. The "little people" get chewed up and spit out.

berurah · Senior Member

And this is a jailable offense because?????

My heart goes out to the mom. Why don't they jail some of the politicians/bankers, etc. for all of their crooked deallings that they buy their way out of? Now, I could get behind that.

-- Edited by berurah on Friday 28th of January 2011 03:37:09 PM

-- Edited by berurah on Friday 28th of January 2011 03:40:39 PM

BigG · Guru

When I observe the success of various Wall Street firms, it makes me think that lying might be the most valuable skill in our society.

Razorsharp · Guru

If she is not paying taxes in the jurisdiction, she shouldn't be sending her kids there. Lying is not a value to teach your children.

BigG · Guru

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654

Would vouchers fix this or would the few good public schools be swamped?

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