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Post Info TOPIC: White House Believes Egypt is Stable


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RE: White House Believes Egypt is Stable
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Seems as apropos as ever, just about now:

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



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http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/egypt-vs-indonesia-in-attitudes/

It's not that the Muslim Brotherhood will step into the power vaccuum. It's simply that the people in Egypt aren't 'advanced'. They believe stone age stuff, and in large proportions of their population.

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@Bogney - a lot of people are assuming the Muslim Brotherhood will step into the power vacuum, but I do not know if that is correct. They are not as organized as they could be, it is possible they don't have a prominent enough leader to gain the necessary votes. They controlled about 20% of the seats, at least a few years ago. They also might be having some internal disputes over what actions to take as a result of the current events. Lastly, by some counts, the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate Islamic movement.

El Baradei's (former IAEA leader) name has been tossed around, but many Egyptians think he is an outsider who hasn't spent enough time in Egypt.

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BigG, I don't know if I agree with that...

regarding science, you can either build a bridge, or not build the bridge. You can find the speed of the falling object, or you cannot. It is very cut and dry. There is right and wrong.

the same cannot be said for "weigh the benefits and drawbacks of increasing the tax rate." Everyone can have opinions on whether or not to raise the tax rate, based on as little or as much information as they want. You can debate back and forth for eternity... you cannot debate the speed of a falling object or whether the bridge you designed will support X number of pounds.

and as a followup, just because it is easier to have an opinion on something like "tax hikes vs. tax cuts", it does not mean that the opinion is educated. Look at all the people who voted that think Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house. Even Rachel Maddow reported that Sarah Palin supported invading Egypt in the last couple days, which was blatantly false, but it will be repeated.

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Some of my worst professors were among the best known.  Their reputation was from publishing or research (political science, not real science - but I suspect it might have been similar).  Some of the best didn't get tenure and went on to other "lesser" universities.  The elite professors are probably for the elite students at the elite universities - the students who actually do participate in cutting edge research and can understand what the hell the professor is thinking - even if doesn't verbalize it well.

So, back to topic, I have been reading about the empire striking back today.  Anyone have any insight as to whether Mubarek can whether this storm for more than a few days or weeks?

Also, is there no hope for moderates to gain control in Egypt - people who care more about their standard of living than religious politics?

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poetgrl wrote:

Does anyone have any insight into WHY he is trying to hold on?  I mean, besides the obvious one-liner that he is nuts.

I mean, he's 80.....you'd think he would have had enough by now.  hmm




He doesn't want to be forced out?  If he hangs on until the election, he can be the guy who moved Egypt to a Democracy.  The guy who ran the country for 30 years and ended on his terms, leaving the country better off than he found it.

just my guess about what he might be thinking... at a basic level, no one wants to be fired.



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Bogney,

My thesis that China is the source of all our woes is so well publicized here I no longer feel the need to elucidate it at every opportunity, just every other opportunity.

Why do most science/engeering types seem to have a better grasp of the liberal arts than most liberal arts majors have of science/technology?

 I think it is because gen ed liberal arts courses are designed to be interesting and entertaining. We don't subject sociology majors to the tedium of syntax analysis in their required English courses. They get to read stories and write about that. Chemistry majors taking Western Civ don't have to endure the academic tedium of research from "original sources". They get to read Will and Ariel Durant.

On the other hand most science and almost all engineering instructors seem to take the attitude that their discipline is a sort of "gnostic priesthood" that students  should have to struggle to enter. Combine this with the minimal verbal skills of many accomplished science and engineering researchers and you have a recipe for a tedious course.

Look at how well authors of mass market popular science books do at making their subjects entertaining. Contrast this with the gen ed science at most universities.

The exception being the "elite" schools. They get the best instructors no matter what the subject.

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http://www.parapundit.com/archives/007865.html

Lets keep it realistic people:

What regime change in Egypt will not do:
  • The new regime won't be any fairer toward the Coptic Christian minority.
  • The new regime won't grant more freedom to women.
  • The new regime won't be any less corrupt. It will just have different people making the money.
  • The new regime won't manage the Egyptian economy so well that it will usher in a new era of more rapidly rising per capita incomes.
  • The new regime won't be any friendly toward Israel and the opposite could easily be the case.
  • The new regime will not validate the dream of democracy as the solution to all the world's political problems.
Basically, the Egypt of 2010 will pretty much suck at the same level as the Egypt of 2011/2012. Life goes on.

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Bullet wrote:
No. The singular goal of US foreign policy has been and should remain to look out for our strategic interests.  While preventing nuclear proliferation is a very important stategic interest for us (for obvious reasons), we also have vital strategic ECONOMIC interests in that region, particularly maintaining stability in that region since this area controls the flow of oil (the fuel that drives our industial and economic strength).  THAT is why we maintain an interest in the region, and that is why we sometimes have to pay attention to 2nd and 3rd world "piles of crap".

In the case of Egypt, just watch what would happen to oil prices if this unrest somehow interrupts the flow of commerce through the Suez.  40% of the world's oil supply flows through that strategic strongpoint; just ONE incident involving a ship on that canal could potentially see an overnight 10% increase in the price of oil. 

Trust me, the ONLY way we would get involved militarily would be if the Suez is cut off.  Then things would get ugly.

 

 



1. Stopping nuclear profileration should be the #1 strategic goal regarding Egypt. I say this because Egypt will obviously be unstable for quite awhile and their economy is actually large enough to attain nuclear status.
2. 40% of the world's oil doesn't flow through the Suez. That's completely wrong. You either made it up or your source is wrong. About 2.5% of daily oil production goes through the Suez.

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Does anyone have any insight into WHY he is trying to hold on?  I mean, besides the obvious one-liner that he is nuts.

I mean, he's 80.....you'd think he would have had enough by now.  hmm

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Mubarak trying to hold out until the elections this fall (or late summer?)... think he will make it? I don't.

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Who might say, "Frankly, Mubarek, we do give a dam!"  Sorry, slightly unhinged tonight for no particular reason.  Nice to run into broadly educated engineering types.  Your humanities background trumps my science background every day of the week - though I still read physics  for poets type books once in a while to try to have clue.  Now, after praising your education, I have to note that I am somewhat surprised that you haven't related the Egyptian crisis back to China.  smile  There has to be a connection . . . .

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Perhaps a modern Heracles could work a deal with the Aswan dam staff....



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The subject of this threat is a sort of figurative pidgeon English pun.  Right about now, Egypt is a stable and it will be a Herculean task to clean it!  Unfortunately, I don't see any epic heroes on the horizon to purge with water for a quick fix.  cry



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Israel does not agree with the US position.

So?

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[url/] http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us-egypt-israel-usa-idUSTRE70U53720110131

Israel does not agree with the US position. 

From the article:

Newspaper columnists were far more blunt.

One comment by Aviad Pohoryles in the daily Maariv was entitled "A Bullet in the Back from Uncle Sam." It accused Obama and his Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of pursuing a naive, smug, and insular diplomacy heedless of the risks.

Who is advising them, he asked, "to fuel the mob raging in the streets of Egypt and to demand the head of the person who five minutes ago was the bold ally of the president ... an almost lone voice of sanity in a Middle East?"

"The politically correct diplomacy of American presidents throughout the generations ... is painfully naive."



-- Edited by poetgrl on Monday 31st of January 2011 06:13:46 PM

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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/obama-will-go-down-in-history-as-the-president-who-lost-egypt-1.340057

OK. It is no secret that I consider everyone in Washington, D.C., Democrat and Republican, President O.,Congress and the SCOTUS to be incompetent idiots who are not "looking out" for the best interests of most American citizens.

But how is 30 years of policy President O.'s fault?

Is it just the "quarterback syndrome" or has he done or failed to do something in particular?

What can he do? Send the Marines to storm the Pyramids?

The Egyptian military is already protecting museums.

Thoughts?



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Abyss wrote:

Just another 3rd world pile of crap. The singular goal of US foreign policy regarding 2nd & 3rd world countries should be to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Whatever government is least likely to go for nukes is the one we want. Period.



No. The singular goal of US foreign policy has been and should remain to look out for our strategic interests.  While preventing nuclear proliferation is a very important stategic interest for us (for obvious reasons), we also have vital strategic ECONOMIC interests in that region, particularly maintaining stability in that region since this area controls the flow of oil (the fuel that drives our industial and economic strength).  THAT is why we maintain an interest in the region, and that is why we sometimes have to pay attention to 2nd and 3rd world "piles of crap".

In the case of Egypt, just watch what would happen to oil prices if this unrest somehow interrupts the flow of commerce through the Suez.  40% of the world's oil supply flows through that strategic strongpoint; just ONE incident involving a ship on that canal could potentially see an overnight 10% increase in the price of oil. 

Trust me, the ONLY way we would get involved militarily would be if the Suez is cut off.  Then things would get ugly.

 



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Just another 3rd world pile of crap. The singular goal of US foreign policy regarding 2nd & 3rd world countries should be to stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Whatever government is least likely to go for nukes is the one we want. Period.

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http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=205931

Is the unrest trending anti-American?

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Bogney wrote:


4)  Thank you for the Posse Comitatus reference.  Occasionally, I do know what I am talking about even if I can't quite put my finger on it.  smile

-- Edited by Bogney on Sunday 30th of January 2011 11:24:40 AM



You're welcome smile

 



-- Edited by Bullet on Sunday 30th of January 2011 12:55:27 PM

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Bogney wrote:

Bullet:


3) Can you say with confidence that things would have ended up worse for the U.S., Vietnam, and the world at large had we allowed Ho Chi Minh to complete the communist revolution in Vietnam without our interference?  They won after ten years of war with us, and a war with France before that.  That war did not stop the spread of communism.  It did not bankrupt the Soviet Union (wasn't their primary support from China?)  Is it "naive" or realistic to assume that retribution after ten(+) years of war might have been harsher than that which would have accompanied a quicker conquest?  Ten years of war can built up a lot of hate and resentment.  Even assuming that the war did not make matters worse for the South Vietnamese people once the U.S. withdrew, the war then merely delayed the inevitable at the cost of more lives lost in battle and bombings.


-- Edited by Bogney on Sunday 30th of January 2011 11:24:40 AM



No, I can't say with confidence that things would have turned out different than the end result (N. Vietnam siezes power, with over 1 Million S. Vietnamese killed when saigon fell).

What I can say with confidence is that your earlier post that isinuated we should have support Ho Chi Min instead of the south is simply foolish.  Same for your statement that without our intervention (which ultimately failed for a variety of very stupid decisions on our part), Ho Chi Min would have annexed the south with a minimum of blood shed. 

Very simplisitic to think that the only reason for our involvement was to stop the spread of Communism.  Of course it was perhaps the driving factor, but after a few years of providing minimal military advisory support, it was also obvious to us that Ho Chi Min's brutality would have meant massive amounts of atrocities against the south as part of his take-over.  To think that only our involvement in the conflict led him to this attitude is naive at best, ignorant of the facts at worst.

Unfortunatley for the South, like I said we made a bevy of mistakes there (support of a dictator and incompentent being one) that eventually only stopped the inevitable.  The North would have massacred the South once they took control regardless of our participation.

Ho Chi Min is NOT this benevolent leader some may have you think. Brilliant, but not benevolent to his enemies...

 



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Bogney wrote:


2)  I agree that support for Isreal was clearly going to draw heat from Arab countries regardless of our other policies in the Middle East.  However, supporting neighboring strongmen to keep a lid on unruly Arab populations is a dangerous gamble.  When the strongmen fall, than we have created even more enmity by being directly responsible for the oppression of the People.  Not only did we support Isreal, but we also directly injured Egyptians by supporting their oppressive government.  Supporting Isreal while supporting self-determination elsewhere in the region might have been the wiser course.  The result would have been less oil and therefore far less wealth, but then we would have had less oil dependence as well.  Maybe, those countries would have recognized that we had taken a principled position on self-determination and sold oil to us anyway despite our support of Isreal.



-- Edited by Bogney on Sunday 30th of January 2011 11:24:40 AM



Certainly, we (the US) supports some governments over their that are friendly to us, or more importantly have somethingwe need strategically (i.e. oil).  Egypt's Mubarak government wasn't on that list. More of a "don't mess with Israel, andwe won't mess with you".  Outside of thatand the strategic chokepoint of the Suez. it just wasn't important to us. 

Now, does it stink that we sometimes have to get in bed with people we wouldn't normally send a Xmas card (or perhaps in this case a Ramadan card) to?  Certainly.  It would stink more if we had to deal with them choking off our oil supply.  Remember the gas lines in the 70s?  Want to live through tha again?  And you like having the benefit of living in the world's largest economy for over 4 generations? Want to see that go away?

I think the better course would be a national effort to find alternative fuels for our unquenchable thirst for cars and machines.  Trust me, the day we announce we've discovered cold fusion will be the day we collectively tell these despots to put their lips on our behinds...  I will be the first to lower my pants.

 



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Bogney wrote:

Bullet:

1)  How does giving money to Egypt prevent Egypt from attacking Israel, especially when it was apparently a relatively small amount of money?   I am asking because I really don't know or understand the theory here, and I do suspect that you know much more about than I do.  Was it money, arms, or both?  If it was not a great deal of support, I am not seeing how one can say that these "subsidies" prevented another war.  Was it a direct deal to the effect of:  if we provide monetary support and arms and give you a free hand with your own people, you won't attack Isreal?  Buying them off seems like a devil's bargain.



Blame Carter for this one, if you must.  Simply part of the peace deal brokered by him, where we would send nearly an equal amount of support to Egypt that we were sending to Israel, IF Egypt kept the peace. 

And while $2 Billion a year may not seem like much to us, it meant a LOT to the Egyptians. Enough to ignore nearly 30+ years of anymosity between the two countries and hostilities between their borders.  (I think the fact that they were getting tired of Israel kicking the patooties every time the two countries fought might have played a factor as well).

As to the point of "we'll give you a free hand with your people"; that was never part of the deal or the equation.  If the Egyptian populace wanted democracy, we would have gladly supported them.  Our fear was the situation would turn into another Iran (which it may now become), where a dictatorship was overthrown by an extremist religous faction.  The difference is: the Shah WAS our puppet (and bad on us for supporting him), Mubarak is in no way supported by us outside of our year bribe (I mean "subsidy equal to Israel's").

No, the anti-American sentiment comes from a generation of anti-American (and anti-Israel) rhetoric the popultion has been fed in order to distract from the real cause of their problems (their own governments).

 



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Bullet:

1)  How does giving money to Egypt prevent Egypt from attacking Israel, especially when it was apparently a relatively small amount of money?   I am asking because I really don't know or understand the theory here, and I do suspect that you know much more about than I do.  Was it money, arms, or both?  If it was not a great deal of support, I am not seeing how one can say that these "subsidies" prevented another war.  Was it a direct deal to the effect of:  if we provide monetary support and arms and give you a free hand with your own people, you won't attack Isreal?  Buying them off seems like a devil's bargain.

2)  I agree that support for Isreal was clearly going to draw heat from Arab countries regardless of our other policies in the Middle East.  However, supporting neighboring strongmen to keep a lid on unruly Arab populations is a dangerous gamble.  When the strongmen fall, than we have created even more enmity by being directly responsible for the oppression of the People.  Not only did we support Isreal, but we also directly injured Egyptians by supporting their oppressive government.  Supporting Isreal while supporting self-determination elsewhere in the region might have been the wiser course.  The result would have been less oil and therefore far less wealth, but then we would have had less oil dependence as well.  Maybe, those countries would have recognized that we had taken a principled position on self-determination and sold oil to us anyway despite our support of Isreal.

3) Can you say with confidence that things would have ended up worse for the U.S., Vietnam, and the world at large had we allowed Ho Chi Minh to complete the communist revolution in Vietnam without our interference?  They won after ten years of war with us, and a war with France before that.  That war did not stop the spread of communism.  It did not bankrupt the Soviet Union (wasn't their primary support from China?)  Is it "naive" or realistic to assume that retribution after ten(+) years of war might have been harsher than that which would have accompanied a quicker conquest?  Ten years of war can built up a lot of hate and resentment.  Even assuming that the war did not make matters worse for the South Vietnamese people once the U.S. withdrew, the war then merely delayed the inevitable at the cost of more lives lost in battle and bombings.

4)  Thank you for the Posse Comitatus reference.  Occasionally, I do know what I am talking about even if I can't quite put my finger on it.  smile

-- Edited by Bogney on Sunday 30th of January 2011 11:24:40 AM

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Bogney, again you missed the point. Our subsidies to Egypt were sent to prevent another war between Israel and Egypt, a war that would surely bring in the rest of the Arab world into the battle. The consequences of this war would have been catastrophic, not just to this region but to the rest of the world. These actions by us have prevented just that.

As to the population calling for the death to the Great Satan that is the US? Whom is to blame for that? My opinion, the Arab world itself, which couldn't stand the sight of a flourishing democracy as a neighbor, and very openly supported all means to send a message to it's populace on the evils of Israel (and in turn, the evils o the US for supporting them). NOTHING we could have done outside of helping support efforts to kick Israel out of the region would have stopped that.

I'm not saying that the US tends to only look at the short term in its international dialogue and whom we support sometimes, which does have a tendency to bite in in the patootie sometimes. But it simply wasn't the case here.

Your assessments of the benevolence of Ho Chi Min and N. Vietnam was amusing, however. Naive, but amusing.

And the name of the law you mentioned that prevents the military from participating in domestic affairs and law keeping is Posse Comitatus.

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Donna, you and I must have been watching different news feeds, because in every one I've been viewing (BBC, Reuters, all the major US networks and newspapers, heck even our intelligence communities daily summaries) these events were started EXACTLY by the type of folks I described: the poor and uneducated young men who took to the streets demanding work and equal living standards.

What has the world media in a tizzy is that the Egyptian middle class has started to join them. This revolt started on the low end of the social-economic ladder in Cairo and other urban areas and is spreading to include more and more of the population.

And to say religious fundamentalism is NOT a factor? Egypt SHUT DOWN the internet and cell phone service in the country to try to prevent the citizens from organizing via social networks. So, the population simply was fed the message to continue to revolt through the only other means available to organize: a call to arms by their Imams' during prayer service. If Egypt falls, it will see the very scary rise of a very dangerous power: the power of the Mosques demanding to lead the people.

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The demonstrations in Cairo and other Egyptian cities have very clearly *not* been dominated by the uneducated, poverty-stricken people who live in cardboard shacks in "favelas" akin to those on the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro.  Or by poor rural people living near the Nile and leading essentially the same way of life they did 4,000 years ago.  It's been educated, essentially middle-class, computer-literate, people (including many Christians) who may or may not be unemployed, but have given no indication whatsoever that they're interested in fundamentalism or shouting religious slogans.  Go read their blogs.  There are plenty of them in English.   I've seen videos of crowds of Islamic fundamentalists, calling for the imposition of religious law, and death to the Great Satan and the Zionist Entity.  As we all have.  This isn't them. 

Again, I'm not saying that won't happen eventually.  But there are no signs of it yet.

-- Edited by DonnaL on Saturday 29th of January 2011 07:44:19 PM

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At least not consitutionally unless there is insurrection.  No large standing armies and state militias to counterbalance a federal army combined with a significant federal navy was protection offered by the original Constitution to prevent the tyranny of military power on domestic soil while still having the ability to protect us from our enemies.  Since then, the army has become rather large, but in theory it is not to be used against U.S. citizens.



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Hummm...

Bogney's latest sentence...

Hummm...

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Bullet:

If the "subsidies" of that government were keeping peace with Isreal, and if that is contrary to the wishes of the people, then the U.S. is still seen as the enemy.  Even if that was consistent with the wishes of the people, then the U.S. is still subsidizing an unpopular dictator and therefore an enemy of the people.  I doubt the people of Egypt care much about our justifications for subsidizing a corrupt regime that was oppressing them.  Keeping Isreal well armed and an ally should have been sufficient to protect Isreal without supporting other strongmen in the region.

Even if you are absolutely correct and I am dead wrong in this particular instance, the general point remains the same.  Why do we assume that we can anticipate the unintended consequences of our international meddling when we assume that we cannot do so with our own domestic policy?  I suspect it is because our military is first rate and can be used on foreign soil if plan a, b, and c don't work as expected in foreign policy - but we cannot rely on our military to fix domestic blunders.

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Someone needs to send Mubarak a copy of the biography of Ferdinand Marcos of the Phillipines, a fine role model for evil dictators everywhere.

When things get grim, grab the boodle and run to the good old USA. No blood , no death, no reprisals, just live the good life on the money you stole.

The Phillipines got off cheaply. It could have been a bloodbath.

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Yes, I agree with your assesment of the general situation.

As I have always noted, it was always within the power of the Arab nations to provide places for the Palestinians and the fact is that it has always been much more convenient to leave them where they are as a means of constantly leaving them poverty stricken, hopeless and angry.  The concern of the middle eastern monarchists and dictators for their citizenry is alarmingly lacking.

And, so, yes, they continually use the US as a whipping boy as a means to an end to get the hatred directed away from their own leaders and onto us.

The question I have is how much longer this can go on.....the way that it is.

This is the reason I think we need to say, "We stand with all true democracies.  We believe in the right of the people to self-govern and to vote."  I doubt it'll happen, but we "should."  JMO

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Very young, very uneducated, very poor, very underemployed, and getting VERY religious populace. Usually makes for a very bad situation for the government, especially if they are also finally seen by that young, uneducated, poor, out-of-work, religious populace as the reason they are in the situation they in.

What has the leaders of the Arab world nervous here, especially in countries with demographics similar to Egypt's? The fact that the methods used by Mubarak to stay in power have seemed to failed in this case. Mubarak's methods? 1) Buy off the population (Bread and petro / kerosene (which most Egyptians use for home power) are heavily subsidized by the government. In fact, bread is free in Egypt, kerosene costs $0.05 a liter.), and 2) Violently suppress the opposition.

Some Arab nations with similar ruling classes use similar methods. But others (like Saudi and Jordan) use slightly different tactics. 1) Buy off the opposition (Ultimately, the reason why the biggest contributor to Islamic Extremism is Saudi. Their method, simply to tell the Extremists who live within their borders (and there are many), "Here's a large amount of cash. Now go preach against someone else."), and 2) give them someone else to hate in order to distract them from their own misery.

So, as to the question: "is this the spark that lights the powder keg?" My guess, no. It will just show leaders in countries like Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, and Iran that Mubarak's methods failed, so they should press harder in regards to the other methods mentioned.

As to Bogney's statements that somehow America's role in this theater is partially to blame? Simply stated, the subsidies we have been sending to Egypt for over a generation were not sent to hold up a strongman, but to maintain peace between Israel and Egypt in order to stop the area from potentially imploding. Seem to have worked in this case.

If Islamic Extremists want to use this effort as an excuse to hate America more? Well, their pretty good at looking for someone else to blame to keep their followers from questioning their leadership. Looks like they learned something after all from the governments they felt oppressed by. A tragedy really, and real world proof that Orwell had it right when he penned "Animal Farm".

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Our aid is less than 2 billion dollars. peanuts! If the new government is hostile to us, pull it even though it won't make any difference.

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poetgrl wrote:

Yes, exactly.  Stay out of the politics in other countries and let them elect their own government.  If the people want a government we consider an ally, we can treat them that way.

Interesting to note that the military is positioning itself as friendly to the protestors.  I figured once Mubarek fired the government, he'd lose the military.  Should get even more interesting.  Hate to be over there right now.  Or to be an Israeli, for that matter.



I really believe, at this point in time, we should simply say we stand for democracy in every place where democracy is being practiced and where every individual has the protected right to vote, and leave it at that. 

 



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But don't the protester's want US to cut off aid? They want the President to announce that. So in some way we are involved no matter what we do. If we say nothing and the assumption is we will continue with aid it appears we are siding with Mubarak but if we announce we are cutting aid we clearly support the protesters. Am I not seeing that clearly?

By the way I do not know what we should do so I am reading and learning.

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Yes, exactly.  Stay out of the politics in other countries and let them elect their own government.  If the people want a government we consider an ally, we can treat them that way.

Interesting to note that the military is positioning itself as friendly to the protestors.  I figured once Mubarek fired the government, he'd lose the military.  Should get even more interesting.  Hate to be over there right now.  Or to be an Israeli, for that matter.

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Doesn't that entirely depend on who ends up in control?

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Should he continue with American aid to Egypt?

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I think Obama should stay the heck out of the dispute. I am so tired of the US imposing its will on other countries. All Obama needs to do is say a few words about opposing violence and hoping for a peaceful resolution among the citizens of Egypt.

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Interesting article, Donna.

One thing I would question, which I have been questioning for quite some time, now, however, is that last sentence.  Maybe the truth is that we "ought" to stop trying to "get things accomplished" in other people's countries, now.

It is sad but true to say that we have too many of our own problems to be going into other people's back yards offering a whole bunch of money and advice, let alone holding a gun to their head and demanding they do what we want.  JMO

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Interesting article that seems to make some of the same points I was trying to make:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/28/the_new_arab_world_order

The New Arab World Order

Don't mistake the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt for 1978 Iran. But that doesn't mean that U.S. diplomacy in the Arab world is going to be any less complicated going forward.

BY ROBERT D. KAPLAN | JANUARY 28, 2011

108478149.jpg

The most telling aspect of the anti-regime demonstrations that have rocked the Arab world is what they are not about: They are not about the existential plight of the Palestinians under Israeli occupation; nor are they at least overtly anti-Western or even anti-American. The demonstrators have directed their ire against unemployment, tyranny, and the general lack of dignity and justice in their own societies. This constitutes a sea change in modern Middle Eastern history.

Of course, such was the course of demonstrations against the Shah of Iran in 1978 and 1979, before that revolution was hijacked by Islamists. But in none of these Arab countries is there a charismatic Islamic radical who is the oppositional focal point, like Ayatollah Khomeini was; nor are the various Islamist organizations in the Arab world as theoretical and ideological in their anti-Americanism as was the Shiite clergy. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt functions to a significant extent as a community self-help organization and may not necessarily try to hijack the uprising to the extent as happened in Iran. And even Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is not quite so identified with American interests as was the shah. The differences between 2011 in Egypt and 1978 in Iran are more profound than the similarities.

Furthermore, whatever the outcome of these uprisings, it seems clear that Arabs and their new leaders will be focused for years to come on the imperfections within their own societies -- perhaps to a greater degree than on injustices committed by Israel and the West abroad. Indeed, in Tunisia the demonstrations were partially spurred by the WikiLeaks cables that showed Washington deeply ambivalent about the regime and not likely to stand with it in a crisis. Politics may thus become normalized in the Arab world, rather than radicalized. Remember: A signal goal of al Qaeda was the toppling of such regimes as Mubarak's, which oppressed their own people and were seen as toadies to American and Israeli interests. If Mubarak goes, al Qaeda will lose a recruiting argument.

But the dangers to U.S. interests of what comes next in the Arab world are hard to exaggerate. Were demonstrations to spread in a big way to Jordan and Saudi Arabia, a catastrophe could be looming. A more enlightened, pro-American regime than the one now in Jordan is hard to imagine. As for the Saudi royal family, it is probably the worst possible form of government for that country except for any other that might credibly replace it.Imagine all that weaponry the United States has sold the Saudis over the decades falling into the hands of Wahhabi radicals. Imagine Yemen were it divided once again into northern and southern parts, or with even weaker central control issuing from the capital city of Sanaa. The United States would be virtually on its own battling al Qaeda there.

Right now all these uprisings look somewhat the same, as they did in Eastern Europe in 1989. But like in Eastern Europe, each country will end up a bit differently, with politics reflecting its particular constituency and state of institutional and educational development. Poland and Hungary had relatively easy paths to capitalism and democracy; Romania and Bulgaria were sunk in abject poverty for years; Albania suffered occasional bouts of anarchy; and Yugoslavia descended into civil war that killed hundreds of thousands of people. The Arab world is in some ways more diverse than Eastern Europe, and we should therefore heed the uniqueness of each country's political and historical situation in calibrating U.S. policy.

President Barack Obama's administration should stand up for first principles of civil society, nonviolence, and human rights everywhere; and where an autocrat appears on the way out, as happened in Tunisia and might happen in Egypt, the United States can play a constructive role in easing his removal, even as it reaches out to the new political forces at play. American diplomacy in the Arab world is about to become even more intricate. No longer will it be a matter of having one telephone number to call in each country. Henceforth, Washington will have to deal with dozens of political personalities to get the same things done as it used to with just one leader. Democracy equals complexity.


 




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The Reuters headline and Gibbs out in front preaching it, further solidifies to me how naive and over their heads this admin is. 

I like this photo, to me it screams, 'Anyone here think he knows what the %$!& he's doing?  Nope, he's on a conference call with Bill & Hillary.'  biggrin







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Interesting thinking Bogney.

Actually, my husband was saying on the way to our daughter's basketball game this morning that the only "right" thing for the US to do at this point in time is to simply come out in support of every democracy in the world, whether we agree with who the people elect or not.  Just "We are for democracy.  Period. End of sentence."

I think he's right, and I think you are right, too.

It will probably be a little bit destabilizing for us, but at some point I suppose we just have to stand by our principles, even if the outcome isn't in our "favor" or the exact favor of those who are our allies.  JMO

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For a country that arose from a revolution against a mildly oppressive regime, we have been very unreceptive to the people of other countries revolting against brutal regimes.  Ho Chi Minh was shocked that the U.S. did not support the Vietnamese people's revolutions against French colonialism - he thought that we would be allies, or at least neutral.  It would be interesting if one could see in an alternative universe how things would have turned out had we stayed out of Vietnam altogether, and given support to Vietnamese self-determination.  The brutality of the northern conquest of the south may have been far less if it had not been preceded by a decade of escalating war caused by ever increasing U.S. involvement.

It is our support of brutal regimes that share our "interests" that undermines us with the poor people suffering under those regimes.  We consistently put our moneyed interests ahead of our rhetoric about freedom, equality, and the right of the people to choose their own government.  Our actions are creating our most inveterate and implacable enemies, and they are using religion as their primary weapon against us.  What about cleaving to our ostensible political philosophy rather than strictly to our economic interests at times?  It might even work out well economically to have fewer international enemies.

It is interesting when conservatives descry liberal efforts at domestic "social engineering" by pointing out the law of unintended consequences.   The great society created a "welfare state" that has allegedly worsened the effects of poverty or spread poverty, etc. 

On the other hand, our efforts at manipulating foreign affairs militarily, or by arming regimes that we perceive as less of a problem to us than others with more popular support, is seen as prudent real politik thinking.  What about the law of unintended consequences in such foreign affairs?  Arming the Afganies might not have been such a great idea after all.  Supporting Mubarek worked for a while, but what now?

-- Edited by Bogney on Saturday 29th of January 2011 11:11:40 AM

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bullet-- what do you think?  Is this the spark?  I'm a little nervous.

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Dang it! Did it again!

Gotta keep remembering to look to see which user (Pima or I) is logged onto the home computer before I hit "post reply"!

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Donna, I recommend you do a bit of research on the "Muslim Brotherhood"; it's history, stated goals, and current influence within the majority of the poor populace of Egypt. The only thing that has kept them out of power in Egypt has been Mubarak' brutal oppression of their influence. That ability may have just gone "poof" along with the current Egyptian government...

Unfortunately, unlike his Saudi counter-parts, who simply buys out the potential threat of a fundamentalist seizure of power within their borders, Mubarak never had the oil money to go the "bribe the fundamentalist threat to your regime" route...

The political, ethical, and political make-up of every Muslim country may not be the same, but the groundswell of Islamic fundamentalism and extremism has made most of the Muslim world a potential powder keg, just waiting for that one unfortunate spark.

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BigG, I think you're making a mistake by apparently assuming that the religious, ethnic and political makeup of every Muslim country is the same.  Islamic fundamentalism has never been nearly as influential in Egypt (which, after all, is still 10% Christian) as in some other countries.   Egypt is not Afghanistan.  Nobody's going to allow the fundamentalists to blow up the Pyramids and the Sphinx and the Cairo Museum.  There is *no* equivalent to Khomeini in Egypt; not remotely.  Am I guaranteeing that in one year or five years or ten years there won't be an Islamic fundamentalist government in Egypt?  Of course not.  But you're wrong to suggest that it's a certainty.


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