Political & Elections

Abyss · Senior Member

RE: Yale Law Professor: Chinese Mothers are Superior

BigG · Guru

I firmly believe that some children of ditch diggers can indeed become theoretical physicists, brain surgeons, etc. and should have that opportunity.

Insisting that every one can do anything is just a waste of scarce resources.

What about effective training for ditch diggers to improve productivity and earning power? What about capital investment in excavators and backhoes? What about effective unions for ditchdiggers that aren't corrupt and/or stupid? What about better attitudes and pride in workmanship among ditchdiggers?

Whew. I am going to take my meds and go to bed now. That is best.

Say goodnight BigG.
Goodnight BigG.

Abyss · Senior Member

Get those heretical gene-based intelligence theories out of here. We don't need any of that nonsense. Every child of a ditch digger can become a theoretical physicist.

-- Edited by Abyss on Friday 14th of January 2011 01:43:21 PM

BigG · Guru

Bad news; Only God (or their genes) can make them smart.

Good news: Human beings of very modest potential can achieve quite a bit.

Canuckguy · Veteran Member

Here is another perspective, by Charles Murray of all people.

http://blog.american.com/?p=24765

BigG · Guru

blankmind,

If the parents do not "push" the child at an early age into ballet (or swimming or science fairs or painting) excellence NEVER happens.

Even disadvantaged youth playing power sports get encouragement at an early age from coaches and athletic boosters.

-- Edited by BigG on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 06:47:57 AM

Abyss · Senior Member

crescent22 wrote:

This is a fascinating defending-way-of-life thread.

They have American kids on work ethic and sacrifice, hands-down.

They pay a price for that, in the aggregate, just as ballerinas of any ethnicity pay a price if they want to be the white swan. But I would not pretend there is a claim to superiority because of a self-declared better disposition or outlook on what is right. Isn't that a tautology?

I don't think it's a question of "better" or "right". It's more of a question about what mindset will lead to long run economic superiority.

The American experience was quite good during the 1900s. Will it continue to be from the year 2000 and beyond?

I'm not so sure.

-- Edited by Abyss on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 06:39:22 AM

blankmind · Senior Member

True crescent, but the difference is that it is the ballerina herself who chooses to pay the price of becoming the white swan, not her parents.

crescent22 · Veteran Member

This is a fascinating defending-way-of-life thread.

They have American kids on work ethic and sacrifice, hands-down.

They pay a price for that, in the aggregate, just as ballerinas of any ethnicity pay a price if they want to be the white swan. But I would not pretend there is a claim to superiority because of a self-declared better disposition or outlook on what is right. Isn't that a tautology?

Woodwork · Senior Member

As they say, no one ever got happy to be rich, but most get rich in order to be happy.

Happy is the end. Not rich.

blankmind · Senior Member

It sounds like that mother views parenting as a personal challenge to stamp out any perceived imperfections. I guess I took the lazy way out, and just enjoyed the slow process of discovering who these new humans were that nature gave me.

My daughter goes to a school with a high percentage of Asian students, mostly Chinese & Korean. She says that the guys she knows seem to be pretty "chill" but the girls are very stressed out, in her words "way more than normal." I wonder if there is a difference in how boys are treated versus girls.

Canuckguy · Veteran Member

I think this "Chinese" mindset comes from two sources:

1) most of the people, even when China was at the height of her power, have always been poor;

2) the world's first meritocracy, where high positions are not inherited but must be competed for.

To give you an example of a meritocracy in action, look at this young PLA singer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Won0FhxbAgw

Zu Hai became the most recent of Chinese vocalists invited to give a solo performance at Vienna's Golden Hall. I was stunted when I learned that in the year she auditioned for and won a spot in the auxiliary high school of the Chinese Conservatory of Music, she was one of only two that was admitted.

We thought getting into an Ivy is difficult.

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

Is the happiness of the individual the highest good?

Is a high suicide rate worth the good results for and from the survivors?

We are currently engaged in a competition that will determine whether our paradigms are viable, long term, for the society as a whole.

Certainly Wall Street's emphasis on short term individual gratification has served the larger society very poorly.

Survival of the fittest; It is not just for lower animals.

-- Edited by BigG on Monday 10th of January 2011 02:52:36 PM

I, for one, welcome our Chinese overlords.

BigG · Guru

Is the happiness of the individual the highest good?

Is a high suicide rate worth the good results for and from the survivors?

We are currently engaged in a competition that will determine whether our paradigms are viable, long term, for the society as a whole.

Certainly Wall Street's emphasis on short term individual gratification has served the larger society very poorly.

Survival of the fittest; It is not just for lower animals.

-- Edited by BigG on Monday 10th of January 2011 02:52:36 PM

DonnaL · Senior Member

http://shanghaiist.com/2011/01/10/tales_of_a_chinese_daughter_on_the.php

"There's a reason why Asian Americans - and especially Asian American girls - have the highest depression and suicide rates out of any ethnic/gender combination in the United States. There's a reason why "28% of Asian American high school students reported depressed feelings serious enough to disrupt their usual activities, 19% reported making a suicide plan, and 11% reported making at least one suicide attempt." It's got a lot to do with mothers like Chua thinking their methods are golden. "

zoosermom · Senior Member

If I thought it would work with my son (12), I would call him garbage, too. No hope there. I told him recently that if he forgot to hand in his social studies project I would "reach down his throat and rip his heart out." He ignored me. Maybe I'm just too short to be menacing. At this point with the high school application process (which is worse than the college process, by the way) looming on the horizon, I would pretty much try anything to get the boy to turn in his homework.

He played "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" for hours last night on the clarinet and the saxophone. But I'm not sure he will turn in that project.

Cartera · Guru

She'll be lucky if one of her children doesn't kill her in her sleep. All I could think of while reading about "The Little White Donkey" is that she was acting like "Little Chinese A..hole."

-- Edited by Cartera on Monday 10th of January 2011 12:39:13 PM

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

It's funny. Most of the friends I have that are Chinese and are highly successful were raised with very "Westernized" parents.

My good friend from high school was born in China, but her parents moved here when she was quite young. She did ballet, piano, violin, but she also did Miss Teen Michigan pageants, quiz bowls, concerts, and a lot of other fun things. She was always highly social and had a lot of friends. She also scored perfect scores on the SAT, ACT, and PSAT and is now doing very well as a 4.0 student at Princeton.

Life is about more than grades. Humans are social creatures and we thrive on social interaction. You can be the most brilliant physicist on the planet, but if you can't play well with people then your career options are very limited. I think we're starting to see a backlash with kids like this who are having a hard time finding jobs and getting into top schools. People don't want to hire the 4.0 stellar student who never left their dorm room. As a result, top schools aren't accepting these cookie-cutter kids because they don't want a bland, unemployable student body.

OTOH, American parents are much, MUCH too lenient on their kids. For some it works. My parents never pushed me and I never really had much to live up to. But because I didn't need to live up to my parents' expectations, I was able to set my OWN expectations and live up to them. Disappointing myself was worse punishment than my parents could ever give me. This obviously does not work for all children though.

We need a happy medium. Kids need to have fun, but they can't spend all day on X-Box. I don't know where that happy medium is though.

BigG · Guru

I think most Chinese mothers in China cannot afford a violin...

But that is changeing. Generally because their government is plundering wealth from our society.

pima · Guru

I stopped thinking the Chinese were rational people when I was in grade school and they decided to make the 1 child only law.

I was probably in 5th grade, but even then I already realized that in decades from that time, there would be an issue because these kids would grow up and if that % was off between sexes it would cause problems.

FF 30 yrs and look at China now, women are being kidnapped and forced into marriages because the ones that could abort the female fetus did, and now their beloved son can't find a mate.

That world is very disturbing to me.

My sister had a Chinese foreign exchange student for 3 months, 11th grade, his parents sent gifts to her constantly, including round trip tickets to China, basically a bribe because once he got out of his parents sights he revolted. Not drugs or anything like that, but she could not get him to do his homework, sit at the dinner table, clean his room, etc. This was his yr to be a kid for the 1st time in his life.

In the end, because she had 2 foreign exchange students, the other from Germany, she had to say to the school, you need to find another place for him because he is ruining the experience for the German student.

The Chinese kid was failing every class, the German was honor roll and even made the Varsity soccer team.

The next family had him for 1 month before they contacted the school and said ENOUGH. The child is now back in China.

Hold the reigns to tightly and you are bound to hurt them in the end.

DonnaL · Senior Member

I am very glad she was not my mother, or my son's mother. Somehow, a lot of people manage to succeed very well without being treated like that by their parents.

You don't have to call your children "garbage" in order to have them succeed academically.

It's also inherently silly because it's a circular argument: she excludes from the definition of "Chinese mothers" all the many such mothers who don't engage in the parenting practices she did. My son had quite a few East Asian classmates in elementary and high school, and from what he told me, and what he observed, not a single one of them was raised that way. (No "playdates" during their entire childhoods?)

I'd also love to know what percentage of Chinese parents in China itself act like that.

BigG · Guru

Sounds much like what the military does during boot camp.

Discipline early, or discipline late, which produces better results for the child?

Historically the "Western" approach has produced very creative individuals in the arts, sciences, and business. But as society becomes more complex and it requires a higher degree of mastery of prior advances in order to create innovation, will the "Chinese mother" methods yield better results?

soccerguy315 · Guru

hmm... it is broken for me too... if you type "chinese mothers are superior" into google it is right there.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html
this is the url google gave me, i think it is the same? but it works...

BigG · Guru

The link is defunct!

Conspiracy of suppression?

WSJ probably just wants a login.

-- Edited by BigG on Sunday 9th of January 2011 10:29:05 PM

Abyss · Senior Member

Well, there is a lot of truth in the article.

soccerguy315 · Guru

Wow, do people really pay $50k/year to have the honor of sitting in this person's classroom?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

-------------------------------------

Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:

• have a playdate

• attend a sleepover

• be in a school play

• complain about not being in a school play

• watch TV or play computer games

• choose their own extracurricular activities

• get any grade less than an A

• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

• not play the piano or violin.

Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.

If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.

------------------------------------------

If the Chinese way is so superior, perhaps this lady should go back to China. Good grief.

As you can see here: http://www.helium.com/items/1003299-the-high-suicide-rate-of-asian-americans Asian American children are apparently also scoring a high percentage in the "likely to commit suicide" category.