The attack on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Arizona was an attack on every law-abiding American citizen.
The man who shot the congresswoman murdered a federal judge and five other people, including a 9-year-old girl, has damaged our republic far beyond the taking of human lives. If politicians cannot walk freely to talk with their constituents, we don't have a democracy.
"Talking Points" believes that any new laws that provide greater safety for public officials should be considered. We simply cannot have chaos at this level. The killer, Jared Loughner, is a psychopath. Civilization has always had them and always will. There is no solution to the likes of Loughner.
Besides the senseless violence, there is another disgusting display sweeping America, and that is the exploitation of the murders by political zealots.
Only moments -- moments -- after Congresswoman Giffords was shot, some far-left loons began to spew their hatred: Conservatives encouraged Jared Loughner to pull the trigger. Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Fox News, all spurred the psychopath to kill the six people. The merchants of hate who are peddling this stuff should be accountable.
So let's begin with The New York Times. In an editorial Monday, that far-left newspaper said: "It is legitimate to hold Republicans and particularly their most virulent supporters in the media responsible for the gale of anger that has produced a vast majority of these death threats. Many on the right have exploited the arguments of division, reaping political power by demonizing immigrants or welfare recipients or bureaucrats."
That is flat-out reprehensible, and every American should condemn that New York Times editorial. Republicans had nothing to do with these murders in Arizona.
If you oppose a porous border, you are not demonizing immigrants. If you oppose a nanny state, you are not demonizing welfare recipients. The New York Times does this all day long. If you would disagree with their far-left view, you are hateful.
Even worse -- even worse -- is Times columnist Paul Krugman, a radical-left Princeton professor. Krugman accuses Congresswoman Michele Bachmann of inciting hatred towards Miss Giffords because Miss Bachmann said this:
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) REP. MICHELE BACHMANN, R-MINN.: I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us having a revolution every now and then is a good thing, and the people -- we the people are going to have to fight back hard if we're not going to lose our country. (END AUDIO CLIP)
Obviously Ms. Bachmann was using a metaphor to make a political point. It is simply morally repugnant and libelous that Krugman would smear Ms. Bachmann by connecting her to the murders.
Incredibly, Krugman continues: "But you won't hear on MSNBC jokes about shooting government officials or beheading a journalist at The Washington Post. Listen to Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly and you will."
As usual, Mr. Krugman is lying. The man is simply incapable of telling the truth. Here is the proof:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Did you see "Live and Let Die," the great Bond film where Yaphet Koto was the bad guy, Mr. Big. In the end, they jammed the big CO2 pellet in his face and he blew up. I have to tell you Rush Limbaugh is beginning to look like more and more like Mr. Big. And at some point somebody is going to jam a CO2 pellet into his head and he's going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Now, Mr. Matthews wasn't threatening Mr. Limbaugh; he was making a political point. Compared to the other people on MSNBC, Matthews is St. Paul. To its disgrace, NBC News allows vicious personal attacks on anyone who doesn't toe the far-left MSNBC line. The hatred spewed on that cable network is unprecedented in the media. And then there is Sarah Palin. She is being blamed for the murders as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NANCY CORDES, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Giffords was one of 20 Democrats whose districts were lit up in crosshairs on a Sarah Palin campaign website last spring. Giffords and many others complained that someone unstable might act on that imagery. (END VIDEO CLIP)
As everybody knows, Governor Palin was very active in last November's election and using words like targeting certain districts is common political usage. In fact, Fox News correspondent James Rosen reports that the Democratic leadership committee has used almost the exact same imagery as Governor Palin in assessing campaigns. I guess Paul Krugman didn't see this bit of campaigning by West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOE MANCHIN, D-W. VA.: I'll take on Washington and this administration to get the federal government off of our backs and out of our pockets. I'll cut federal spending and I'll repeal the bad parts of Obamacare. I sued EPA and I'll take dead aim at the cap-and-trade bill. [Shoots a copy of the Cap and Trade bill with a high powered hunting rifle] (END VIDEO CLIP)
And the hits just keep on coming. After condemning the violence, the far-left women's organization NOW opined: "We condemn, equally, the culture of hate and violence increasingly reflected in extreme right-wing opponents of those who support progressive solutions to our country's challenges."
They condemn equally? NOW equating mass murder with rhetoric? Unbelievable. And somehow NOW does not condemn the Daily Kos or the hate-filled diatribes on MSNBC. No, they are perfectly fine. It's just the right-wing that's the problem. The hypocrisies are stunning, but they pale -- pale -- beside the exploitation of these terrible murders in Arizona.
Decent people simply do not ascribe motivation to a psychopath like Loughner unless that motivation is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I can't tell you how angry this makes me. Far-left loons have attacked me in vile ways for years. I have to have security around the clock. Has The New York Times ever said a word about that?
Some of my colleagues here at Fox News and on talk radio are faced with the exact same situation.
There comes a point in a free society when citizens have to acknowledge the truth or see their country dissipate
The New York Times, MSNBC, Paul Krugman and others are furious that their far-left vision is falling apart, so they are using a terrible tragedy, using it to attack their perceived political enemies. That's what this is all about: the failure of the far-left agenda. Because the loons are furious, they are now accusing people of being accessories to murder. How despicable is that?
President Obama struck exactly the right tone on Saturday when he said this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's not surprising that today Gabby was doing what she always does: listening to the hopes and concerns of her neighbors. That is the essence of what our democracy is all about. That is why this is more than a tragedy for those involved. It is a tragedy for Arizona and a tragedy for our entire country. What Americans do at times of tragedy is to come together and support each other. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Well, that is good leadership from Mr. Obama. Unfortunately it's not happening. Also, I would like to see the president call out the far-left thugs who are exploiting these murders, who are so full of hatred that they can't even allow people to grieve before turning the tragedy into a political circus.
One final note: There is hatred on the right as well. There is over-the-top rhetoric. And these murders in Arizona should remind conservatives that there are boundaries, lines that should not be crossed.
Hate is hate; it doesn't matter where it comes from.
And that's "The Memo."
-- Edited by winchester on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 10:23:38 AM
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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
Is that taking advantage of a tragedy? Perhaps, and so what? Tragedies are often used for political gain, But I will say this, Bogney, I have the absolute greatest respect for someone who will take an unpopular (and even icky) position and stand his ground. I salute you. (Seriously. Not being facetious -- I admire nothing so much as the defense of one's principles.)
"Delusionville?" Again, it is an interesting argument to define everyone who disagrees with your position as delusional or a liar. Well, Bogney, you aren't correct and I don't think you are a liar. So I prefer to think that you are just deluded about what goes on on the far left. Would you prefer ignorant? I'd be happy to give you that one, if you'd like. Your posts show a remarkable lack of information and insight. As you know, I've always had a problem with your tone and perhaps this is more of the same, but it seems to me (and I think others) that there is something missing from your posts on this subject. Which, as I said, I believe to be information and insight. You seem to be so hellbent on scoring points that you're not even thinking about what you post. I've been told that you are funny, witty and wise. I'm sure that's true in other contexts, just not this one. The loss of life here is so horrifying as to make one's knees weak, and you are going to such great lengths to tie unconnected people and events together that your motivation appears suspect. You're in good company, though. I had the exact same reaction to Mayor Bloomberg when he tried (and failed) to tie the Times Square bomber (I work in Times Square) to the Tea Party. Some things should be above politican gamesmanship. The tragic loss of life is one of those. If you feel that you have a chorus today, perhaps it's because there is something in your posts that you may not intend (or that you may intend) that's high up on the offense scale.
Soccerguy, you didn't even attempt to answer my question, except with an absurd slippery slope argument. Even apart from the fact that it's conceivable that 6 shots might be necessary for self-defense (whereas if you need 33, I suspect there isn't much hope for you), I could turn it the other way and ask you what limits can be imposed by your logic. It's OK to have a 33-bullet clip, so private ownership of a machine gun is OK? A tank? A nuclear weapon in your suitcase? You could at least attempt to be reasonable, instead of jerking your knee all the way up to your forehead.
My goodness, I have my own right wing Greek chorus! :) Good morning everyone! Let's see, where to begin.
Crescent, while Palin and I certainly disagree on the substance of issues, we were talking about her imagery, so your point does not really apply.
Winchester, that is ridiculous - nothing is ever that black and white except perhaps racism in extreme cases. There are many cases where a person is not responsble for their own actions - first epiletic seizure ever causing a car accident that kills someone. As to your second point, what is war? Your third point is similarly overstated as was your first. Your last point is an overwrought personal attack - whatever. Also, when you define people who disagree with you as liars or delusional, it does limit the possibility of common ground.
Zoosermom, we are going around in circles. Palin did not do it. She may not have incited this particular individual. However, he illustrates the dangers of rattling the cages of the nuts and extremists. There are unstable elements in society that might be influenced by the rhetoric of incitement, and it is irresponsible to blithely ignore when you are a person of great social and political influence, as Palin undoubtedly is. Is that taking advantage of a tragedy? Perhaps, and so what? Tragedies are often used for political gain, and this is not offensive to the victim of the tragedy, who complained of Palin's tactics herself. It is offensive to claim that Palin's rhetoric is beyond reproach because of this tragedy. "Delusionville?" Again, it is an interesting argument to define everyone who disagrees with your position as delusional or a liar. I would prefer "correctville," but I am not holding my breath.
Each and every one of us is solely responsible for our own actions. Period.
Any person who takes it upon themselves to settle their grievances through murder is deranged. Period.
Other than derangement, the motivations or beliefs of that person are immaterial.
It takes a sick, twisted logic to malign any political philosophy, whether that philosophy is anarchism, communism, libertarianism, liberalism, or conservatism because one person who happens to ascribe to that philosophy is deranged.
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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
As my previous posts show, there is more than enough evidence of the language of hatred and violence from all levels on the left to prove that anyone who believes that...
… although violent rhetoric exists among US leftists, it is not remotely on the same scale, and, more importantly, not an institutionally endorsed tactic, as it is among US rightwingers.
…is either incapable of honestly observing the world around them or flat out lying.
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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
Whether this nut job shot a politician just because he is nuts, or because he is nuts and heard violent rhetoric against her that justified his action in his own warped mind may never be known No it won't be known. But that won't stop your gleeful efforts. There is no connection between Palin and the whackjob outside of the grateful imaginations of the left.
People should be wary of charismatic politicians stirring up very negative emotions against the opposition with violent rhetoric. Yes they should. Mr. Obama should have been much more careful than to refer to bringingn a gun to a knife fight. His associates with violent extremists are also very disturbing. Mr. Olbermann, Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Matthews, et al. really should stop stirring up their base.
Bogney, so what's the headline in Delusionville today?
I agree with you about the guns, and have raised it several times though without as much specificity.
I disagree with you about Palin. People should be wary of charismatic politicians stirring up very negative emotions against the opposition with violent rhetoric. Whether this nut job shot a politician just because he is nuts, or because he is nuts and heard violent rhetoric against her that justified his action in his own warped mind may never be known. Either way, it is dangerous to insinuate that violence is warranted to take down the opposition because there are crazies who will do it. Palin should use her elevated position in society more responsibly.
What's absolutely ridiculous is the major difference in MSM response between the Ft Hood shooting and this one. To a lesser extent there was also the Omar Thornton mass murder (which was literally just a pure race killing).
The ridiculous portrayal of the 'left' murders and the 'right' murders has really shown how intellectually bankrupt mainstream liberalism has become.
-- Edited by Abyss on Monday 10th of January 2011 10:27:22 PM
Honestly, after hearing even a little bit about this psycho, talking about Sarah Palin is just ridiculous. Trying to score political points is a cheap shot and appears completely irrelevant to this situation.
Why aren't people asking questions like---How is it that paranoid schizophrenics can purchase guns? How is it that schizophrenics who appear dangerous (gee, what are the odds the parents didn't know he was a threat) can't be compelled to take treatment of some sort? Or at least not allowed to buy weapons. I actually don't know how it is that people don't have to go through serious security checks to purchase weapons, and how do you purchase a gun with so many rounds anyways? And I'm not anti-gun at all, but why does that kind of weapon need to be available to anyone but the military or police officers anyways? What about the connection to marijuana useage and schizophrenia (sorry you tokers, it's real).
I do understand that the NRA is somewhat like the pro choice organizations, as in.....fighting every single restriction, even reasonable ones, because they are afraid that if you let one get by, it starts to snowball. There seems to be a lack of common sense everywhere. I just think there's far more issues at work here than political rhetoric and all that crap.
Politicizing mass murder is tacky? Virtually every mass murder is politicized at the very least through the political process of prosecution, the press following the prosecution, and the resultant political pressure to convict. Political mass murders are the most politicized - Stalin anyone? Political assinations are inherently political even if conducted by a madman. The attack on Reagan and his survival made him more popular than ever. Death by drunk driver was policized by MADD. The shooting of a law office in San Francisco years back led to gun control legislation, which is now constitutionally suspect.
Certain types of politicization of murder can be tacky, and that is usually the type that one disagrees with. Given the victim's protests against Palin's putting her in the crosshairs, it seems a natural to mention Palin's lack of judgment in stirring up her base - rattling the cage if you will.
How does this politicization in anyway dishonor the victim? It doesn't. Palin deserved and received criticism for her incendiary comments before this, including criticism from the victim, so why should such comments stop now simply because they sting more? That is why they are appropriate.
Right wing criticism of an abortion doctor led directly to his murder by a religious fanatic. He was clearly "targeted," and a nut killed him after many threats. Railing against policial enemies in a manner suggestive of violence from people in positions of political power is unacceptable. From entertainers and private individuals, it is tacky and irresponsible (and the Bush hater's certainly fit that descripton), from politicians it becomes dangerous. Palin, more than anyother mainstream and popular U.S. politician has made whipping up an uneducated base an art form - snarky and incendiary comments from notes written on her hand is her primary political gift, along with nice cheek bones. Mainstream republicans are finding her scary, not just the left. Supporting Sharon Angle, please?!
Certainly, reasonable minds can disagree and a lot of you do. But this attempt to take the moral highground is the disingenous position of those without a real argument. It is a transparent strategy to deflect deserved criticism, by lumping it with the undeserved criticism. I agree that the fact that Palin's rhetoric has been irresponsible does not mean that she caused this shooting - a madman did it. However, the fact that a madman, whose motives remain unclear other than the fact that he singled out a political rally, did it does not somehow protect Palin from questions about her dubious political tactics calculated to inflame her base (and I do mean base) against their opponents.
I don't think there's anything in the Second Amendment requiring clips for 33 bullets to be legal. Why exactly is something like that necessary for a handgun for anything other than mass murder?
how many bullets per clip are "necessary" in your mind? If he only had 6 bullets and shot 6 people, would you say "I don't see why someone should be allowed to have 6 bullets, why do you need that many in a handgun???"??
Who is Harry Mitchell? Had anyone ever heard of him before his ad appeared posted here?
Does anyone think that "Targeting red states" is remotely similar to targeting individuals? I don't think anyone suspects that democrates intend to go "nucular."
And, true, there are many fools on both sides. However, the militia rhetoric, the showing up at rallies with guns, and overt calls to violent resistance to government policy comes more frequently and clearly from the right than the left.
So, it's ok to do what Harry Mitchell did because not as many people have heard of him?
I do think that the Dem maps with targets on them are obviously very similar to Palin's map with targets, as they are both maps with targets on their political opponents.
Showing up at rallies with signs to "abort Palin" and "kill Bush" is not really the mark of moderation.
Their parents probably thought they were good kids and all that, but I do agree there appears to be a pattern here - first the SUV, then the PowerstrokeTM diesel, and then speed-loaders to keep up with all the other Glock owners.
Poor jokes aside, I hope better times lie ahead of us.
I don't think there's anything in the Second Amendment requiring clips for 33 bullets to be legal. Why exactly is something like that necessary for a handgun for anything other than mass murder?
Certainly the gun angle is a reasonable and likely politically profitable one. In fact, I am suprised that the Left, in general, has relied so lazily on this tired angry-right meme and missed the opportunity to go all 2nd amendment on the gun-toting knuckle-draggers with such a golden opportunity as this.
Speaking for myself, as I have yet to regard myself as a cog in someone's idea of 'them' or 'they,' I have never defended anyone's hard or soft hyperbole, left, right or center. Even more, I have been pretty clear about being no fan of Sarah Palin...or Barack Obama. I find the crosshairs thing kind of tacky. Not my style, at all. Neither do I like Barack's referring to the loyal opposition as the enemy that needs to be defeated...especially in the context of race. Tacky, as well. Worse, I don't think the Tea Party would have me, even if I felt the urge to protest from the right...which I don't, and I have known too many community organizers to take them seriously. I am a political slacker.
But only a complete political moron could think that the boilerplate of any politician, Sarah Palin or Alan Grayson, could be in any way connected to the mass-murders of the psychopath, Jared-the-Bloody. Neither Keith Olberman nor Rush Limbaugh. Only a fool could think that, and I am no fool.
The Left, in general, is afraid of the public in this political climate. The liberals were, in Barack's words, shellacked in the last election and they are in no mood to get a little more boot-sand in the face. I don't blame them. But politicizing this mass-murder is tacky and classless. Full-stop.
I remember not too long ago when politicians and pundits were calling for calm and that we shouldn't attribute the motives of the Ft. Hood shooter on religion, but that he was simply a madman. And that "Alahu Akbar" was simply a generic send-off to victims from their mass-murdering nut.
> Conservatives playing the shame card should be ashamed of themselves. They might want to actually consider whether or not the extremity of the rhetoric of their leaders and favorite news outlet might be creating a danger for politicians
OK.... Hmm.. It might be. But I'm not going to do anything about it.
I remember not too long ago when politicians and pundits were calling for calm and that we shouldn't attribute the motives of the Ft. Hood shooter on religion, but that he was simply a madman.
Personally, I think both of these men were politically or religiously motivated, and that they were nuttier than fruit bats. Just saying.
sorry Bogney, same rhetoric by dems as well. Just saw a map from 08 with targets on rep. districts. What the left wing rags are doing is sad...but not many read them anyway.
Conservatives playing the shame card should be ashamed of themselves. They might want to actually consider whether or not the extremity of the rhetoric of their leaders and favorite news outlet might be creating a danger for politicians than rushing to the defense of indefensibly incendiary rhetoric used for political gain. That is shameful.
Bill Maher interview with John Kerry in October of 2006.
Maher: You could have went to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone.
Kerry: Or, I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone. http://newsbusters.org/node/8175#ixzz1AfrVsMZe
Clilck on the link below and scroll down to see multiple examples of signs carried by liberals at various protest rallies which call for the murder of Bush.
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621
__________________
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
A classmate's emails from last summer. Awfully creepy in retrospect.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/jared-loughners-behavior-recor.html Posted at 4:03 PM ET, 01/ 9/2011
Jared Loughner's behavior recorded by college classmate in e-mails
By David A. Fahrenthold
In early June, Lynda Sorenson, 52, had gone back to community college in Tucson in hopes of getting back on the job market. One of her classes was a basic algebra class--and one of her classmates was Jared Loughner, now identified by authorities as the man who killed six people and critically wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) in a shooting rampage Saturday. Sorenson's e-mails to friends from last summer, provided to the Washington Post, reveal her growing alarm at Loughner's strange and disruptive behavior in class.
From June 1, the first day of class: "One day down and nineteen to go. We do have one student in the class who was disruptive today, I'm not certain yet if he was on drugs (as one person surmised) or disturbed. He scares me a bit. The teacher tried to throw him out and he refused to go, so I talked to the teacher afterward. Hopefully he will be out of class very soon, and not come back with an automatic weapon."
From June 10: "As for me, Thursday means the end to week two of algebra class. It seems to be going by quickly, but then I do have three weeks to go so we'll see how I feel by then. Class isn't dull as we have a seriously disturbed student in the class, and they are trying to figure out how to get rid of him before he does something bad, but on the other hand, until he does something bad, you can't do anything about him. Needless to say, I sit by the door."
From June 14: "We have a mentally unstable person in the class that scares the living crap out of me. He is one of those whose picture you see on the news, after he has come into class with an automatic weapon. Everyone interviewed would say, Yeah, he was in my math class and he was really weird. I sit by the door with my purse handy. If you see it on the news one night, know that I got out fast..."
The class's instructor, Ben McGahee, said in an interview Sunday that Loughner had been removed from class in its third or fourth week, because of repeated disruptions.
-- Edited by DonnaL on Monday 10th of January 2011 02:31:47 PM
DLC’s 2004 “Heartland Strategy” includes a map of the U.S. entitled “Targeting Strategy,” with a caption that starts off with “Behind Enemy Lines” in all caps and shows bull’s eyes on red states.
Out of respect for those that post here, I will assume that those that imply that there is any connection at all between any political rhetoric and the mass murder in Tuscon are doing it with a politically mischievous grin.
It has been an article on the liberal wish list to turn back the angry tax-payers (read: mobs with pitch-forks) in these turbulent economic times. This horrible incident works well into the pre-written talking points. And truth be told, if there is any connection between the politics of our time and the violence of our times it is not being caused by political rhetoric but rather by bad economics times and dramatic social change, e.g. unemployment, both bailouts, healthcare overhaul (known to Republicans as Obama-care and Democrats as health-care reform) and the timeless wars of Afghanistan and Iraq.
You know you are living in turbulent times not due to any rhetoric but due to an historic 60+ change in the House of Representatives and even more historic changes in state legislatures. There is your harbinger. Not a political add, nor remark...not even by Sarah Palin.
Mike Malloy hopes “Beck will do the honorable thing and blow his brains out,” that “Limbaugh will do the honorable thing and just gobble up enough – enough viagra that he becomes absolutely rigid and keels over dead,” and that “O’Reilly will just drink a vat of the poison he spews out on America every night and choke to death.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmXQpdB4xpk
Chris Matthews says “Rush Limbaugh is looking more and more like Mr. Big, (from “Live and Let Die” james Bond movie) and at some point somebody’s going to jam a CO2 pellet into his mouth and he’s going to explode like a giant blimp. That day may come. Not yet. But we’ll be here to watch. I think he’s Mr. Big, I think Yaphet Kotto. Are you watching Rush?” http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2009/10/13/matthews-someones-going-jam-co2-pellet-rushs-head-hes-going-explod#ixzz1Af80OKPb
“USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk show host Julianne Malveaux expressed her opinion of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas on PBS: "The man is on the Court. You know, I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early, like many black men do, of heart disease. Well, that's how I feel. He is an absolutely reprehensible person." Nina Totenberg, National Public Radio and ABC News reporter, commenting on Senator Jesse Helms, said, "I think he ought to be worried about what's going on in the Good Lord's mind, because if there is retributive justice, he'll get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it." http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/liberal_hate_speech.html
“3. Washington Post syndicated columnist Richard Cohen: For hypocrisy, for sheer gall, [Newt] Gingrich should be hanged. 4. Comedian and (former) talk show host Craig Kilborn [Caption under footage of George W. Bush]: Snipers Wanted 5. Members of the St. Petersburg Democratic Club: And then there’s Rumsfeld who said of Iraq, “We have our good days and our bad days.” We should put this S.O.B. up against a wall and say “This is one of our bad days” and pull the trigger. 6. Actor Alec Baldwin on Conan O’Brien: [I]f we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! [crowd cheers] Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families.” http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/14232
-- Edited by winchester on Monday 10th of January 2011 02:10:21 PM
__________________
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
think linking someone with a mass murderer for no reason than that you disagree with that person's politics is despicable.
That would be despicable. On the other hand, saying that a person contributed to a climate of right-wing violent hate frenzy by using violent language, if that is what she in fact did, is simply stating the truth.
There's a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn't derive from the innocuous use of political clichés. And former Gov. Palin and the tea party movement are more the targets than the source. ... if you're using this event to criticize the "rhetoric" of Mrs. Palin or others with whom you disagree, then you're either: (a) asserting a connection between the "rhetoric" and the shooting, which based on evidence to date would be what we call a vicious lie; or (b) you're not, in which case you're just seizing on a tragedy to try to score unrelated political points, which is contemptible. Which is it? ... those who purport to care about the health of our political community demonstrate precious little actual concern for America's political well-being when they seize on any pretext, however flimsy, to call their political opponents accomplices to murder.
You know what? No it isn't. I disagree. I think linking someone with a mass murderer for no reason than that you disagree with that person's politics is despicable.
Rep. Clyburn thinks it's because the Constitution was read out loud.
“All [of] this stuff taking place in the Chambers the other day, when the Constitution was being read — all that stuff is uncalled for,” Rep. Clyburn (D-SC) told the Ed Schultz radio program.
And I think Democrats who are talking about Second Amendment remedies, and about reloading, and about the bullet box instead of the ballot box, should also tone it down.
Let's make a list of those Dems and I will personally send emails to each and every one.
-- Edited by Cartera on Monday 10th of January 2011 02:28:15 PM
Some of the rhetoric expressed here (and in public) is more unseemly and provocative than anything Palin's ever said.
You know what? No it isn't. Sarah Palin, with her lies about death panels, almost singlehandedly gutted the proposed plan to have Obamacare pay for end-of-life counseling between doctors and their patients. My aunt died in a hospice a few weeks ago... that whole time is terrible, it's awful when families don't know what their loved one would have wanted and don't understand how to navigate the health care system at the end of life, and Sarah Palin carefully prevented us from making that situation less awful.
But that doesn't put the blood of these victims on Sarah Palin's hands.
I don't think the blood of these victims is on Sarah Palin's hands. I do think she is one among many right-wingers who should tone done the rhetoric, as Giffords had asked her to do. Another person who should think hard about what she says is Sharron "Second Amendment remedies" Angle, the failed Senate candidate in Nevada.
And I think Democrats who are talking about Second Amendment remedies, and about reloading, and about the bullet box instead of the ballot box, should also tone it down.
I haven't found the rhetoric here to be over the top. The rhetoric of the media pundits is always over the top. I'm not taking responsibility for them. I don't think anyone here said that Sarah Palin has blood on her hands - maybe I missed it. The most said is that when political figures rev people up with gun rhetoric, someone may get shot. I think that is true, whether it had anything to do with this shooting or not.
I see no evidence that this guy's actions had anything to do with Palin. I have no problem using it as a wake up call to her, however.
I thought you were saying something different, Woodwork. I thought you were considering the situation of someone familiar with both Giffords and Palin being asked, before Saturday, to estimate whether Palin or Giffords would be more likely to be the victim of a violent attack.
Obviously, if I'd been asked beforehand to name a politician who I thought would be likely to be the victim of a violent attack, I wouldn't have named Giffords, since I didn't know who she was. But that's an uninteresting fact. I assumed you weren't asking who, before Saturday, was a bigger celebrity, Palin or Giffords.
This should be a "teachable moment" for our politicians. Why just politicians Bogney? Shouldn't all public figures strive for a more civil tone? Really everyone. In this day and age, it's possible for John Doe down the block to post a video to youtube that goes viral. It should be a teachable moment and everyone should ask him or herself how he or she can do better. Throwing around false accusations and connections is the antithesis of that.
This should be a "teachable moment" for our politicians. Let's hope that they learn, but they won't. The real question is how long the moritorium on such rhetoric will last following this tragedy. If it is so inappropriate to question such rhetoric now, why isn't anyone using it. I haven't heard politicians targeting, or taking aim, or putting their opponents in cross hairs the last few days. Why not, if there is nothing inappropriate about it and if cannot possibly lead to actual political violence, why the reluctance to use such rhetoric now?
Of course the rhetoric should be dialed back, Cartera. Of course it should. As you probably know, I've been saying that for years. But that doesn't put the blood of these victims on Sarah Palin's hands. The whackjob has been stalking Giffords for 3 years. Sarah Palin wasn't even a twinkle in John McCain's eye at that time. It's beyond disrespectful to the dead and injured to milk this tragedy. Some of the rhetoric expressed here (and in public) is more unseemly and provocative than anything Palin's ever said. Surely you see that.
Of course no tragedy should go to waste - that would be a waste, right? Many are saying the rhetoric should be dialed back. Why is it so egregious that those thoughts should appear on this board? Does the sheriff who lost one of his best friends have no scruples? The best we can hope for in the face of tragedy is that behavior might change for the positive.
So, the approach of let's just call this a tragic event caused by a whacko is not politically expedient? It makes more sense to you to ignore the violence in political rhetoric and its effect on the less stable members of the public after a terrible shooting, when the victim expressed worry about being in Palin's crosshairs? That is taking the high road, not holding political leaders accountable for the climate of violence championed by their rhetoric, even if it did not cause the specific event? That road seems fairly low to me.
-- Edited by Bogney on Monday 10th of January 2011 11:39:39 AM
I think it's safe to say that someone would have predicted a violent attack on Giffords before a violent attack on Palin, simply because this was not the first violent attack on Giffords.
Perhaps someone...but I doubt anyone here would have. I doubt many could have even identified which district she represented before this happened. Palin is a different matter.