Political & Elections

pima · Guru

Captain of the Enterprise Fired Over Inappropriate Videos

busdriver11 · Guru

I don't know, Pima. Perhaps myself and others who you think have been defending Capt Honors haven't been clear. Maybe I can do a better job now, at least to articulate my own opinion.

Fine, the Navy took him out of his command position. In today's PC world, yep, you can't get away with putting non-PC stuff on tape. No evidence allowed. He was stupid. His career is over.

Some people care too much, get too personally involved, and put too much of themselves into their job to keep that distance that you need as a commander.

I still say I would 110% rather work for the non PC guy who is crude and inappropriate, and cares like crazy about his troops over the snake who never says anything that could offend, and only looks after his own career. And I would never sponsor the self aggrandizing-never offending any particular minority group-jerk.

It is a completely different affair to (as happened in Tailhook) get up in front of the crowd, as the top General in charge, and declare your hatred and disdain for female aviators....than it is to make a couple of silly and inappropriate jokes. Yes, as women, even we understand and appreciate jokes, and can dish it right back. For women who are working with the huge majority of men on boats, you can't take a couple of inane cracks and give some back? Get off the boat, you're in the wrong place. I would happily tell that to my daughter, if I had one....but there is no way she would be a fragile flower looking to take offense at any opportunity, if she exists. It wouldn't be biologically possible.

I see where Bullet is coming from, and I don't disagree that Capt Honors has gotten too close to others to be doing the job, and he probably shouldn't be commanding that boat anymore, in today's world. But I'd still associate with, hire, or work for the crude caring guy with his heart in the right place (and based upon massive support of his subordinates, it was), than the cold professional creep who only cares about his own advancement. I've worked for and with both, and I avoid the last sort like the plague. You can detect them in a matter of minutes.

You may not realize this, but as women in a man's world, some of us do suffer from the overreactive women who are constantly reporting men they work with. Men who don't know us are always immediately suspicious, guarded and concerned that anything they might say could possibly come back to them...leading them to dislike us as a group. You can see the visible relief sometimes at that moment you manage to set their mind at ease. So, to clarify, I have no objection to those who are raunchy and crude, whatsoever, but I do object to those who are purposefully unkind and selfish.

pima · Guru

As you all know Bullet is my best 1/2. With that please read how he is a retired AF Fighter feels (he was a WSO) regarding this issue where he posted on a military forum.

Ok folks. It seems we’ve hit that proverbial floor in a single circle dog fight: opposite sides of the circle, out of energy, neither with an advantage or weapons solution. Bottom Line: a stalemate in our arguments and points, with neither side willing to budge.

Let me attempt to bring this thread to a new vector, and provide those young men and women on these forums, the future leaders of our military, some lessons to learn from these events; focusing on what exactly this Commander did wrong, and why the Navy had no choice but to relieve him (and possibly expand the witch-hunt due to all the bad publicity it currently is dealing with):

So, what did this Commander do that was so bad? I mean, as it has been pointed out numerous times by some here, what this commander was doing was in jest and meant to boost morale for all on this ship. And let’s face it, just because we are (or were, or will be) officers in the military, it doesn’t mean we stop being humans, with all the standard human emotions, foibles, and flaws. Acting childish, playing the fool, being “one of the boys” happens all the time, even by those in the highest ranks, when we try to make each other laugh or relieve pressure; we’ve ALL been there.

But as professional officers, we should do this IN PRIVATE, either with our peers or with that small group of friends we interact with daily and can trust not to be offended by it. This Commander presented his humor IN PUBLIC, for ALL the Carrier personnel to see and enjoy (or be offended by). Nothing wrong with antics behind closed doors, but this Commander kicked those doors wide open and forced all to watch his foolishness. In this day of constant social media, constant judgment by the news, and examples of people humiliated by actions or speech caught on tape that they should have known better otherwise NOT to say publically, you need to know better. Mel Gibson ring a bell, anyone? Respected actor, director, and all around movie star now thrown to the trash heap because he got drunk and opened his mouth, and his words went viral. Same case here. Your military leadership EXPECTS you to hold a public image of professionalism at all times; this was not the case for this XO.

Was the XO’s video humorous? I’ll admit it, most of it was. Was it appropriate for a wide audience? No, it wasn’t. Let your sense of “would I want my Mom to see how I act when it’s only me and my friends” be your guide here. And that was this XO’s second mistake: his crew is NOT his friends; they are the people who look for him for leadership and judgment. Now, many of his crew and others familiar with him and “Navy ways” are rushing to his defense. But even with 99% of the people under him fully in support of his actions, what about the other 1% who found it offensive and inappropriate? Should they just “go hug themselves in a corner” as he suggests? Is this the way the Navy wants to foster inclusion and diversity? He WAS FULLY AWARE that some of his previous videos were offensive to a few, his own words prove this. But he not only ignored the complaints, he ridiculed them.

And that was his third mistake: he DID foster an environment of fear for some. For you parents out there with daughters considering a career in the Navy, would you want YOUR daughter to have to face the blatant and hostile sexism that this video displayed, where women were treated as sex objects (“and now, something we all want to see. Chicks in the shower”)? Again, some may consider it funny when they joke around with one or two guys they know won’t get offended by it. Not so funny if they perform this act in front of female crew members who may be offended (and rightfully so) by it. So, what could these femlaes who may have been offended do about it? They could complain, but it was pretty obvious to them that those complaints would not only fall on deaf ears, they would be ridiculed further. Nice work environment, huh? Full of fear that if you don’t accept “boys will be boys” you will just be treated worse.

Since Tailhook (another event where the justification that was attempted was “Well, you don’t understand. It’s just the way things are.”) the entire officer corps of the military has had it drilled into them that this type of behavior was UNACCEPTABLE for public consumption. I’ve personally seen several times where leaders failed to learn this lesson, and were shown the door because of it. Do almost anything you want in private, but take this type of behavior public, and you have no excuse for your stupidity. So, time for another lesson: watch what you say and act, to whom you say it to, and when you say it (especially if your going to RECORD it! It WILL get out to the public, and do you really want the world to see your YouTube video of the last time your friends and you were playing "boys will be boys"?)

The last lesson learned here: no one man or woman is bigger than the mission. Leaders are relived all the time, for a variety of reasons. Sure, it causes disruption. Sure, it causes loss of morale. Sure, it can be a pain as a leader to have to get your troops over this. But the mission MUST continue, and it will be YOUR job as a leader to ensure it does. No matter the environment, no matter the challenges. You get your troops to focus on the mission first, and don’t let side issues like these distract them from that. The Navy has taken the first steps to see that this occurs by immediately naming a replacement; it will be up those officers below him on the Big E to ensure it occurs.

That is a military O5 who sat in the sandbox for 4-6 months at a a clip. A guy who can sing the lyrics of Dennis Leary's I am an A$$whole down to the handicap spaces or wore squadron flight socks for a sock check (OBTW sock check is not raising you pant leg, but dropping your drawers)

I am also a wife who gets that life and can sing the entire verse of Head when someone says that word in the hootch or the club, but I found his actions unbecoming of an officer

Warning, if you are easily offended do not read any further because now I am going to give you an insight of what I view as acceptable.

Head?
Who said Head?
I'll take some of that!
It was good and there was much rejoicing.

That is the tamest of all of their songs, I can also sing to you in the Candy Man tune about sticking 2 ice picks in her ears.

I am someone who agrees boys will be boys, However the military has decided to allow women in and play the game of DADT.

He pushed the line as a leader.

I do not know for sure that and enlisted member was brought up on charges for discussing how a woman showers or a gay member and his actions, but I bet if they were under his command did/said what he did in those videos he would have received adminstrative punishment.

Goose meet gander...gander meet goose.

For those with DDs that defend his actions in the video, tell me how you would feel? For those that have homosexual children serving under DADT how would you feel?

-- Edited by pima on Sunday 9th of January 2011 06:01:16 PM

-- Edited by pima on Sunday 9th of January 2011 06:01:52 PM

pima · Guru

The problem for Honors is that this occurred post Tailhook, and every officer has it drilled in their head what is acceptable and what is not, he chose to ignore that directive.

The one who will also pay for this is Adm. Spicer, because now the USN is looking into what he knew and when. Honors will not be the only fall out from this video.

As busdriver said SWA has great pilots, we were just talking about how in the commercial airline field being a busdriver for people in the sky is not a field that is hiring at record breaking paces like it did in the late 90s and even up to 9/10/01.

The one thing I do know about SWA is they still have the good old boy network when it comes to hiring, and it is who you know that gets you in. If one guy on that committee knew you and didn't like you, your chances of getting hired are slim to none. Our friend who has sat on these committees has stated they follow the term black balled very closely.

He has had friends that have asked for recs., but because he knew who was sitting on the panel, he would also know if they knew him personally. If they did and they liked the guy, he would rec. if they didn't he was honest and said, at this time it isn't a good time for you to apply.

-- Edited by pima on Sunday 9th of January 2011 09:09:45 AM

BigG · Guru

Someone gained from Captain Honors dismissal.

Or someone indulged in "payback" for some real or imagined circumstance.

Find out who and flush them from the Navy.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

As many who have served at sea or on deployment for any length of time will attest, your judgement about what is appropriate might be altered by being cooped up for a long time. That's what my friends who have been deployed to sea tell me, anyway.

These videos were done to improve shipboard morale and like anything else, taking a brief snippet out of context might change the intent of the video.

I do think that a couple of them crossed a line that went into the inappropriate category. I am not sure if I believe his career should be shortened because of them, however.

BigG · Guru

Some twit decided to make an issue of the videos.

There needs to be an investigation that includes identification of those who gained from Capt. Honors dismissal.

Political Correctness; Just another arrow in the quiver of amoral, ambitious SOB's.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Capt. Honors (what an incredibly ironic name!) made these videos while he was yet a Commander and XO. Nevertheless, he was promoted to Captain. These videos were popular and well known among both the officer and enlisted ranks. No way were those significantly higher up ignorant of this activity prior to his promotion. If Honors' head deserves to rolls, so do those of a lot of higher ups.

-- Edited by Poetsheart on Saturday 8th of January 2011 08:38:16 PM

busdriver11 · Guru

No, no bad stories about flying SWA. I fly them without any concern at all. I just wouldn't want to work for them, they work far too much for the pay they get. But very, professional, competent company. Don't worry!

Cartera · Guru

Please no bad stories about SWA. I haven't flown in a long time and don't like to fly but am flying next week on SWA.

busdriver11 · Guru

I wouldn't have any desire to fly for SWA, and especially United. The United guys not only lost their retirement, but the massive furloughs, excesses and pay cuts that moved people from wide body left seat, to right seat of something or another probably cut some people's salary well over 50%. I would not want to fly with most carriers, there are only 2 I'd consider.

But saying that, I can tell you that if one has the qualifications, they are going to be looking at internals (even guys who did ramp labor) and people's buddies first. In fact, it probably doesn't matter if you're a space shuttle pilot, no sponsor, no interview. They are highly nepotistic. When my husband got hired, he hadn't flown a thing for 2 years, but was in the first group of interviewees because he had friends and family there. I believe the other airline I'm thinking about is the same way. They are going to hire someone they know over the guy who is 100 times more qualified, it is the good old boy network full force.

So if you happen to know anyone whose looking for a job, even 50 or older, even non-current, let me know. All my friends are already employed, so nobody left to sponsor.

pima · Guru

Again, let's look at the military flying world.

You know, and I know, that when they start hiring again, Honors would not be the pick of the litter due to age, and the fact that as much flying experience he has, for the last few yrs his career was not flying, but more on the desk side, which makes him not as valuable as the O3.

Additionally, the assumption is he would be willing to accept 50K a yr to sit in the right seat.

We have 2 very good friends that the left the AF in 2001.

1. Friend 1 retired in June of 01, and joined SWA after 20 yrs AD AF.

He was sure that by 06 he would be a left seater with SWA.

9 yrs later he is a left seater, but for T-Day, Xmas Eve, Xmas day and New Years he was in Baltimore because to hold his Capt line he was at the bottom of the barrel and now has to have a crash pad as a 50 yr old with 9 yrs in.

He changed his hub from San Diego where he could hold the Capt position to Baltimore because they live outside of Raleigh.

2. Friend 2 separated from the AF as an O4 in Mar of 2001. He went to United.

For the past 9 yrs his butt has been furloughed so much that now he is back in the AF as a UAV pilot.

His wife stated to me that had they been able to predict the future they would have never left the AF.

Bullet was his peer. Bullet stayed in and got 52.5% retirement pay as an O5 and now on a 2nd career regarding his pay, our friend is entering the AF as an O4 at 48 with no pay from United.

FWIW because he is furloughed he and every family member still gets free UA tickets.

I see airlines like the corporate world, they are turning a profit now, but they are not ready to start hiring. They are going to keep pushing their employees with the hope of eeking out every penny before they start re-investing.

We have a friend from the 15E world that got the sweetest of sweet deals. He flies for Fed Ex out of Anchorage AND he works for the guard as an Instructor at Elmendorf for the 22.

-- Edited by pima on Friday 7th of January 2011 01:49:21 PM

busdriver11 · Guru

One thing I forgot to add, as far as your friends getting out after retiring and not going to flying jobs, is that it's always about timing. When I got out of the military many years ago, all the high ranking officer/pilots were getting out and immediately getting snapped up by the airlines. The airlines were hiring like crazy and the pay was good. Nobody was interviewing with defense contractors. But over the last several years, the airlines mostly stopped hiring pilots, and many people took huge paycuts, lost their retirements and got furloughed. I've heard there are American Airline pilots out there who have been furloughed for over 9 years! So people get out of the military and they don't even look that direction any more.

But I think things are changing. Airlines are starting to become more profitable, they're going to need to start hiring and they've cut back all they can. Going into flying after the military will become a much more viable option soon.

busdriver11 · Guru

You are right about stupid. In today's PC military, you'd better not get anything on tape. People still do the same things, but ususually they're not dumb enough to get in on video. Except for the fools who put things on Facebook. But I would never accuse the Navy guys of being exceptionally bright (sorry Navy, just an Air Force insult I couldn't resist).

As far as going into flying after a career in the military, I think the people you know are not the same ones I do. Pilots generally go into the military with dreams of flying, not dreaming about what high ranking position they can achieve. They often take the desk jobs grudgingly, hoping to get a flying job later on. Particularly the fighter pilots. At my airline, they have hired tons of retired guys in their late forties. It is very common, and we even have some people who are currently Generals in reserve/guard units. Many guys can't wait to retire and go back to their true love, get rid of the stress of command and just fly airplanes. We can now fly until we are 65. Not that I'd want to.

As far as the medical, that has changed too. You don't need the astronaut physical to get hired, just a FAA class I physical. (Can you hear me? Yep, passed the hearing test. Can you see me? Yep, passed the eyesight exam. Now write me the $195 check).

I can't speak for other airlines, we may be atypical. But we're starting to hire, and they are already way behind. Second year copilots can make more than capts at most other airlines, and many of those guys aren't salivating to upgrade because they care about lifestyle and commuting. In fact the happiest guys I fly with in the right seat are the retired military ones. Lots of experience, retirement checks, stress free, happy guys.

pima · Guru

He won't get a UMCJ action over this, they will just allow him to retire quietly into the night.

As far as the airline issue, maybe I am wrong, but everyone of our friends that retired, retired at exactly 20 yrs because they feared failing the medical exam for the airlines.

He is 49 so he might have medical issues clearing him for the civilian world.

PLUS, can you see him sitting in the right seat and being on call waiting 3-5 yrs before he can hop over to the left seat?

I can't.

Every O6 pilot I know that retired from the AF never went to a 2nd career with any flying company as a pilot. (FedEx to SWA).

They went in as sr mgmt and leadership. The hiring process is different when it comes to that issue. He is going to have to explain away those videos to the BOD if he wants to be hired on as a SR VP for them.

Honors is from Triangle, VA, which is 25 miles from the Pentagon and Crystal City. He may have had hopes to parlay his Navy career into a 2nd career for the govt, SAIC, Rand, Booze, etc, and return back to VA.

That is over because none of them are going to pick him up with these videos floating around for a SES position.

He is a hot potato when it comes down to the corporate world.

Like you said, I am sure airlines would pick him up if he is medically qualified, but I am not sure he wants to sit in your right seat and bide his time to get into the left seat.

Also, unless rules have changed regarding the airline world, isn't 62 the mandatory retirement age. If it is, that means, maybe he would have 4-5 yrs as the tops in the left seat.

You know and I know that when you 1st enter the airline world you take a pay cut...for him prior to this he was looking at a cushy desk job starting in the 175K range on top of his 75% retirement pay... he wasn't going to go to United and start out at 45K.

That's the thing, he screwed the pooch for his 2nd career where he could have been sitting financially pretty.

I have no pity for this guy. All he showed was he didn't think long term when he was pretending to be Jon Stewart or an SNL actor in these videos.

I am sure he has sat more young officers down and told them to think long term for their career than you and I could shake a stick at...too bad he did not heed that advice when it came to his own life.

I am sure he is a good guy, but stupid is as stupid does.

busdriver11 · Guru

Of course, the Navy didn't care about any of this, resources and all, until it became front page news. A flash in the pan, he's fired, though the repercussions continue, the publicity is over.

Sure, his Navy career is probably finished. Though they probably won't put him through any UCMJ actions, progression will have stopped and they'll hide him behind a desk somewhere. But you don't stay in the Navy that long without making alot of friends (that is, unless you're a self aggrandizing jerk). It's all who you know. He probably already has many jobs leads from friends who feel he's getting screwed by political correctness. I guarantee you that he'd get at least 20 sponsors from my airline, and they wouldn't bat an eye at hiring him. That is, if he is a personable and well liked guy.

pima · Guru

Here's the thing you forget...He broadcasted this using Navy assets and because of that other careers will be on the hook like RADM Spicer.

Spicer's career can now be DOA because of Honors. In the military crap flows up and down when it comes to culpability.

Both of them now will have issues parlaying their military career into a 2nd career.

busdriver11 · Guru

You're right, pima, getting it on film is the big problem. And yes, I agree, to some extent the 21st century Tailhook, but this is one person, small potatoes....Tailhook involved alot more., so he'll quickly be forgotten. Also a problem with him being a higher up, if you're just a peon you can get away with anything.

But I think he'll make the rounds on the comedy circuits (that is, if he is actually funny), and probably will end up at my airline. We're starting to hire, and we have a reputation of hiring all the troublemakers. His antics will no doubt endear him to his interviewers (whom will typically be military, probably Navy), and he can fly for another good 15 years.

Alot of these guys don't just neccessarily disappear. If they have enough personality and stamina, they manage to find a way through it. If he's a jerk, yep, he'll go away quietly, as you can't make that disappear.

BigG · Guru

Politics awaits.

Getting fired by the PC establishment will play big in many regions.

He may end up as the boss of those who forced him out.

How well would their a$$e$ be covered then?

pima · Guru

The fact is this will be the Navy's 21st Century Tailhook. Honors is gone, but more career fall out will occur.

Bus, the true problem with Honors was it was pre-meditated. This was not if he was running in his mouth off in the squadron bar or the O'Club, he used Navy money to film it and broadcasted on the ship as a morale booster.

Honors will be forced to retire, and because of his sophomoronic antics he will not be able to translate his military career into a 2nd career.

Even though he is a pilot and I am sure Bus will agree with me, he is even too old now to start a career in that field because he is close to 50.

-- Edited by pima on Wednesday 5th of January 2011 10:37:52 AM

busdriver11 · Guru

First, very unwise for him to allow this to be videotaped. You don't need things like this on tape as a superior officer. I have known a number of people to get in trouble, and alot of times people think they're in their own little universe and can get away with anything. Especially on a boat. The higher you get up in the chain of command, the more you have to watch your behavior.

On the other hand, anybody who expects people in the military to be bland, sanitized and inoffensive have never spent a day in the service. These guys, definitely the top gun fighter pilot types, are as macho as they come. And as heroic and brave as you could imagine. I don't care if they have as crude a sense of humor as can be, they are going to fight and die for this country.

The humorless , inoffensive superior officers I have worked for, have been complete JERKS who would stab you in the back in a minute to get ahead. They cared about nothing but themselves and would never put themselves out there to take care of someone else. The ones I would have trusted with my life and was completely dedicated to were the ones who were human, passionate, caring and crude as any normal person can be. Expecting people in the military to be robots, tiptoeing around everyone's feelings and being politically correct....that guy is watching his own back, not yours.

BigG · Guru

NO, not Captain Kirk.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/04/AR2011010405432.html

Conduct unbecoming an officier or another sacrifice on the altar of political correctness?

Seems he was closer to his subordinates than his peers or superiors.

Comment for paragraph ten or so;
With gays serving openly, the "beauty contests" would have gotten a lot better.

Seriously, what are the limits and protocols for intergrateing a "group" into the larger organization? Is any attempt at humor or camaraderie to be avoided? Will that improve combat effectiveness?

-- Edited by BigG on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 08:05:38 PM

-- Edited by BigG on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 08:06:03 PM

-- Edited by BigG on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 08:07:03 PM