Political & Elections

soccerguy315 · Guru

RE: White Student Union - Inherently Racist?

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

I think it is human nature to gravitate to those with whom you have the most in common. A lot of times that leads to homogeneous groups. I'll show my geeky side here. I've been in a fantasy baseball league for the last 20 years. Once a year all 12 of us gather for our draft day. In the history of the league there have been about 40 owners. Every last one of them white (I take that back we did have 1 hispanic). Have we denied entry to a person of color? Absolutely not. I just don't know anyone who isn't white that is a big enough baseball geek to want to put this work into it. The same can't be said for my fantasy football, etc... leagues.

We self-segregate by nature. Tech geeks (gamers, programmers, etc...) could care less about color, creed or anything else and only about common interests. I don't think there is anything wrong about segregation so long as it is free will.

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

I've been givning this some thought. There is no thing as a monolithic culture. I picture the cultures more as circles intersecting with each other, but still having distinct differences.

How much is too white? I can't speak for the Black community. I can speak for me. White drives the media. I am bombarded with it. Should I encounter blacks in the media, it tends to be driven by what white people think black people are. The news will find the most negative sterotypical black person hold up and perpetuate the sterotype. In my lifetime, it's gotten better, but it still exists.

The original argument was "is a white student union racist?". Again, my answer is no. The topic moved onto people seeing no need for other type of student unions. Why is that an issue? Why are you conerned that I enjoy being around like minded Black people? I grew up like that. I am not isolating myself from others, but I like being with people I perceive to be like me. I am active in a Black sorority. I attend a Black Episcopal church.

Hell, I manage a staff that is about as diverse as one can get. Two hispanics, 4 Indians, 3 Black guys, 1 White guy and 1 Black female from Trinidad by way of Quebec. One of the best teams I've ever managed. That being said, I am not interested in socializing with them after work.

Perhaps the experiences I've had with a lot of white people have jaded me. Perhaps the undercurrent of bigotry I've experienced has led me to be on my toes. Who wants to be constantly wondering if this white person is a bigot. And why should I have to jump through hoops to show them that at least this Black person is harmless, smart and capable? Not worth the effort anymore. I don't care.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

thread bump

pima · Guru

NBA and I are usually on polar opposites 99.98765% of the time, but I am with him in this argument.

I really get upset when people use race or religion in this manner

I do not mean this offensively, but what is too much white for the black community? I just don't get that.

I mean this in honesty, to reduce people from feeling that, myself as a white is pushing something subconciously in our minds, but apparent in your eyesm we need to know.

What is the actions that describe whiteness where you feel you need to escape?

If I am aware of these actions, than I would stop doing them. People need to talk to each other instead of talking about each other.

-- Edited by pima on Saturday 11th of December 2010 08:50:14 AM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

Good question! What are the "values" or characteristics that define "blackness" as a monolithic subculture within the larger sociocultural mileau of the United States?

For that matter what are the "white" values and behaviors that are expected of an African-American before they can be allowed participation in "white" society?

How do these "white" values differ from "black" values?

Perhaps both "black" and "white" people have had to make changes to their ancestral behaviors in order to function in modern civilized society.

Many of my ancestors worshipped oak trees and fought against assimilation by the Romans. Now we decorate Christmas trees as part of religious observances derived from the "Church of Rome".

Assimilation; Its not just for one ethnic group.

I am very distrustful of the term "values". More often than not, it seems to either be:

1) A meaningless placeholder term for an idea that the user of the term has not thought out very carefully or critically

2) A more respectable way to denote in-group favouritism and out-group hostility (for example, the term "black values" gives the false veneer of some kind of respectable collection of cultural ideals, principles, and philosophies, when in reality, all it really denotes is blacks favouring their in-group — in this case, other blacks — at the expense of everybody else: the out-group).

BigG · Guru

Good question! What are the "values" or characteristics that define "blackness" as a monolithic subculture within the larger sociocultural mileau of the United States?

For that matter what are the "white" values and behaviors that are expected of an African-American before they can be allowed participation in "white" society?

How do these "white" values differ from "black" values?

Perhaps both "black" and "white" people have had to make changes to their ancestral behaviors in order to function in modern civilized society.

Many of my ancestors worshipped oak trees and fought against assimilation by the Romans. Now we decorate Christmas trees as part of religious observances derived from the "Church of Rome".

Assimilation; Its not just for one ethnic group.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Silvermoonlock wrote:

It is white culture I need to retreat from. It is the presumption that I must leave my Black culture (however I define it) to fulfill diversity. It's the presumption that I leave my Blackness at home before I go into the world. Why can't I just be me? And understand that Me is Black and I like it that way.

The way I am reading diversity, is really assimilation to white culture at the expense of my Black culture. "There, there Black person, we really don't see the color of your skin if you fit in with us, have the same values as us, drink the same kool-aid as us." I don't wanna. If that makes me a racist, then so be it, but I don't think it does.

Look, I attended true integrated schools in Jr. and High school. My friends and relatives span the color, nationality and religious spectrum. We all bring something different to the table. I love them, they love me..we are the world..yada yada. At the end of the day, I am still Black and enjoy being with Black people. Why is this a bad thing?

You don't seem to understand that I am not a minority 8-12 hours a day, but every single day of my life. You may not look at the color of people's skins, but many others do.

Who said anything about affirmative action???

How does "white culture" make you abandon your "black values"? And what are those values?

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

It is white culture I need to retreat from. It is the presumption that I must leave my Black culture (however I define it) to fulfill diversity. It's the presumption that I leave my Blackness at home before I go into the world. Why can't I just be me? And understand that Me is Black and I like it that way.

The way I am reading diversity, is really assimilation to white culture at the expense of my Black culture. "There, there Black person, we really don't see the color of your skin if you fit in with us, have the same values as us, drink the same kool-aid as us." I don't wanna. If that makes me a racist, then so be it, but I don't think it does.

Look, I attended true integrated schools in Jr. and High school. My friends and relatives span the color, nationality and religious spectrum. We all bring something different to the table. I love them, they love me..we are the world..yada yada. At the end of the day, I am still Black and enjoy being with Black people. Why is this a bad thing?

You don't seem to understand that I am not a minority 8-12 hours a day, but every single day of my life. You may not look at the color of people's skins, but many others do.

Who said anything about affirmative action???

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

Aren't many fraternities and sororitries de facto "white student unions"?

With a few of them being"black student unions", "Jewish student unions", and "Asian student unions"?

These don't seen to detract from the college experience.

Note about the lack of "white" identity; Ever hear WASP?

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:07:35 PM

Whether or not Greek organizations add or detract to the college experience is a debatable issue.

WASP refers to a small segment of the white population. There are certain segments of the white population that do share some kind of identity (e.g. Southern whites, Italian-Americans, Utah Mormons, etc).

However, to unite them all under the banner of a white students union makes as much as sense as gathering blacks and Asians into a non-white students union.

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

Aren't many fraternities and sororitries de facto "white student unions"?

With a few of them being"black student unions", "Jewish student unions", and "Asian student unions"?

Ever been to a UC school? Not the case even remotely.

BigG · Guru

Aren't many fraternities and sororitries de facto "white student unions"?

With a few of them being"black student unions", "Jewish student unions", and "Asian student unions"?

These don't seen to detract from the college experience.

Note about the lack of "white" identity; Ever hear WASP?

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:07:35 PM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Woodwork wrote:

unfortunately united in the fact that there's a significant chance that they'd be regarded and treated like a n*gger in America. This is, of course, not as commonplace as before, but it still remains potent.

...in which universities is this even remotely true?

I get wanting cultural associations, music appreciation or language associations, cultural appreciation associations or clubs...I do not, however, see either the need or benefit of racial associations.

In fact, I see them as counter productive in the university setting.

Those of a particular interest or background will seek each other out if they so desire without their being an institutional control to manage and advance that desire.

As for the NAACP, I see their glory days behind them, and though I can see where they may still be of some social value on the margins I hope their day is passing and that they leave the stage as their act draws to an end.

And as I said earlier, an institutionally sanctioned "white student union" would attract nothing but socially inept morons.

I agree with you about the kind of crowd that a white student union would probably attract.

And I didn't mean that people of African descent would be discriminated against in universities. I meant that it could and does happen (to some) afterwards in the "real world".

Woodwork · Senior Member

unfortunately united in the fact that there's a significant chance that they'd be regarded and treated like a n*gger in America. This is, of course, not as commonplace as before, but it still remains potent.

...in which universities is this even remotely true?

I get wanting cultural associations, music appreciation or language associations, cultural appreciation associations or clubs...I do not, however, see either the need or benefit of racial associations.

In fact, I see them as counter productive in the university setting.

Those of a particular interest or background will seek each other out if they so desire without their being an institutional control to manage and advance that desire.

As for the NAACP, I see their glory days behind them, and though I can see where they may still be of some social value on the margins I hope their day is passing and that they leave the stage as their act draws to an end.

And as I said earlier, an institutionally sanctioned "white student union" would attract nothing but socially inept morons.

pima · Guru

Silvermoon,

I have taught in a primary black hs, where I might see only 1 white person all day. Our children as I stated attend/ed schools where there was no majority regarding race. I guess if I was forced to say, the only minority in the school were Asians, the rest of the student make-up was equal in %.

I guess I don't feel this way at all because of my up bringing. My brother is an albino, and if you want to talk about nobody looking like you that is someone who can say, nobody looks like me. My parents raised us to believe the only difference between us and anyone in this world is genetic, and for AA's they just have more pigmentation than me.

We were the parents that never allowed our kids, even when they were in pre-school to say my black friend or chinese friend. They were taught that they were never to use skin color as a descriptor, instead they would say my friend who lives over there or my friend I take TKD with when discussing them to me to jog my memory of who the child was they were talking about.

The minute we remove skin color as a descriptor is the minute we start to realize we are all the same.

FWIW, I am sure you can also realize I am against Affirmative Action. I believe the current way it is utilized is not needed anymore. I think the system needs to be changed to a soci-economic discussion. For example, I have a friend who in the race box can check 100% hispanic, her husband is white. Her child checked hispanic for college admissions, yet, the parents both have Masters and are affluent. How fair is that compared to the white kid who lives in a trailer park with a single Mom that has a hs degree and working 2 jobs? That white child is actually being penalized because he had the dumb luck to be born white. My friend's DD got a ton of money and colleges tried to recruit her, mainly because she was an URM for these colleges.

I wish I could say that this is the only example I know of, but I have seen it over and over again. Another friend that I have known for decades, is white, her DH is black. She never allowed anyone to say her children were black, she was adamant that they not be classified, even when they were little and you fill out those school forms, she checked other. I respected that, yet, FF to college applications and when they applied, they were no longer other, they were not white. They were black. Her rationale was it would give her child an edge in the admissions process. Again, her and husband have Masters degrees and are working professionals, with a nice home, in a good school district.

I know there are many minorities that got a helping hand, but these same minorities would get the same edge if we changed the system from race to socio-economic. It would actually do more assistance overall in our society.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Silvermoonlock wrote:

Pima, no offense taken. Just giving you the perspective of a Black person. White IS everywhere. One of the family jokes, when we watch tv or a movie come straight out of Blazing Saddles (paraphrased). "Where da Black people at?" As much as I enjoy some of the sitcoms on tv, I cannot find a black person, maybe every 10th episode or so. I enjoy Harry Potter, but there really isn't anyone that looks like my family.

When I was in college, I'd have classes where I was the only Black person. I can go to seminars and conferences now and be the only Black person.

I wouldn't think of you as a racist, if you said you need to disengage from (fill in the blank), but do you find yourself in a society where you are the minority? Try this. I work with cops lots and lots of men. The female PO's need to disengage from them periodically. The testosterone overwhelms.

Again, my personal opinon is, I wouldn't bat an eye at a white student union. Please don't begrudge me my Black student union.

Is it the mere appearance of white people that you need to disengage from, or something less tangible? And if so, what are these intangible things?

If it really is simply appearance — as opposed to culture or the pressure to be a "credit to your race" as a minority — that makes you weary of whites, I'm afraid you might be harbouring racist thoughts.

To need to disengage from whites based merely on their racial features makes about as much sense as you needing to disengage from afro'ed blacks, or short people, or people with boxy shoulders.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

soccerguy315 wrote:
why does someone need to be under attack before they can form a group?

And regarding how black people are treated, it is clear that you and I live in different parts of America... or at least run in different circles.

I'd love to hear your rationales for organizing a race-based organization that's not dedicated to fighting injustice, neglect, or discrimination.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Poetsheart wrote:

Chris, the NAACP does not! in any way, shape, form or fashion, advocate for the supremacy of anyrace, but rather, for the equality of all races. Specifically, this 100 yr old organization has worked to legally redress inequality, and discrimination against persons of color (and not just black people, either---I'm sure that comes as a surprise to many people) in all areas of societally sanctioned discrimination---education, housing, employment, and civil rights. The KKK fights to maintain the ideals of white supremacy and the subjugation of all non-white races (along with Jews, Muslims, ect.). Strange, however, that so many people feign belief that there's no difference between the two groups...

Whoa, did I actually come off as accusing the NAACP as racist? Sorry if I did.

I was just laying down the conditions that an organization like the NAACP would have to meet in order to be thought of, by me and probably many others, as a racist organization.

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

Pima, no offense taken. Just giving you the perspective of a Black person. White IS everywhere. One of the family jokes, when we watch tv or a movie come straight out of Blazing Saddles (paraphrased). "Where da Black people at?" As much as I enjoy some of the sitcoms on tv, I cannot find a black person, maybe every 10th episode or so. I enjoy Harry Potter, but there really isn't anyone that looks like my family.

When I was in college, I'd have classes where I was the only Black person. I can go to seminars and conferences now and be the only Black person.

I wouldn't think of you as a racist, if you said you need to disengage from (fill in the blank), but do you find yourself in a society where you are the minority? Try this. I work with cops lots and lots of men. The female PO's need to disengage from them periodically. The testosterone overwhelms.

Again, my personal opinon is, I wouldn't bat an eye at a white student union. Please don't begrudge me my Black student union.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Chris, the NAACP does not! in any way, shape, form or fashion, advocate for the supremacy of anyrace, but rather, for the equality of all races. Specifically, this 100 yr old organization has worked to legally redress inequality, and discrimination against persons of color (and not just black people, either---I'm sure that comes as a surprise to many people) in all areas of societally sanctioned discrimination---education, housing, employment, and civil rights. The KKK fights to maintain the ideals of white supremacy and the subjugation of all non-white races (along with Jews, Muslims, ect.). Strange, however, that so many people feign belief that there's no difference between the two groups...

soccerguy315 · Guru

nbachris2788 wrote:

Soccerguy,

The fact is that blacks — whether they are from Mississippi or Mozambique — are unfortunately united in the fact that there's a significant chance that they'd be regarded and treated like a n*gger in America. This is, of course, not as commonplace as before, but it still remains potent.

I refuse to acknowledge white as an entity that warrants a special interest group on its behalf until people can come up with a coherent set of things that are under attack or neglected by mainstream America, and thus necessitates a special interest group like an ethnic/racial organization. I challenged you, Soccerguy, to do this, and you've yet to respond.

It is not enough to come up with a list of experiences, people, and histories that speak to and for white people more so than any other group of Americans. You must also prove that these things are somehow under attack or neglected by mainstream America.

I await your response.

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Monday 6th of December 2010 11:32:42 PM

why does someone need to be under attack before they can form a group?

And regarding how black people are treated, it is clear that you and I live in different parts of America... or at least run in different circles.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Poetsheart wrote:

Couple of Questions: Is the NAACP a racist organization? Btw, before answering that question, you might be interested to know that the NAACP is not exclusionary, in that you can be any race/color whatsoever, and be a member. What is the difference between the NAACP and the Ku Klux Klan?

I haven't ever been to an NAACP meeting, but if they advocate race-based supremacy or subjugation (like the KKK), then yes, they'd be a racist organization.

The problem with a white students union is not that it's inherently racist, as there is nothing racist about acknowledging that there's some kind of category (albeit loosely defined) known as "white" in America.

The problem is two-fold. Firstly, it is very doubtful that such an organization needs to be created in order to protect the beseiged or neglected rights/history/culture of whites; and anybody who harbors such resentments tend to come from racist stock, hence the suspicion. Secondly, a white students union would be, in most cases, the only racial/ethnic student organization capable of tyranny of the majority (unless the union was at Howard University or something). The existence of a white students union would increase the power of the already-dominant majority.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Poetsheart,

You always get right to the heart of the matter. I believe it's a matter of self identification. How do you want to be viewed? What about your kids?

Honestly, I am still bewildered what I should call someone who is black or African American, based on their skin tone. Then again, I don't often have to ask someone what their race or ethnicity is. I guess if I worked for the DMV I might have to ask that question all the time. I remember that we had an amazing discussion a year or two about this very subject.

The bigger issue I have is trying to determine ethnicity. Where I live, there are multiple ethnicities. Many would identify themselves by the country that they were born: Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Peruvian, etc. Are they Latinos? Hispanics? Chicanos? Maybe they are even from Spain, who would likely not want to be called any of these things.

The other night there was a blurb about Gwyneth Paltrow on tv for Glee (I think). The issue was that Lindsey Lohan's lawyers were suing the show about the reference to Lindsay and rehab.

My husband started getting bent out of shape because her character spoke with a largely Spaniard/Castillian accent as a Spanish teacher in the classroom. He thought it was silly to write the dialogue with a Spaniard accent and way of speaking. The language clearly isn't as typically spoken here in the west, although that is how I learned it, originally, from my professor who was from Barcelona.

My point is that there is so much diversity whether it is language or region or age or heritage or race, that it's very hard to say everyone is the same based on only one of those factors. It's equally hard to say they are different based only on some factors like common language, or even skin color.

Unless every race or ethnicity stays segregated and only breeds within it's narrow genetic identifying points, eventually, there is assimilation and intermixing of genetic codes. It is what makes our race - the human race - a stronger one.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Couple of Questions: Is the NAACP a racist organization? Btw, before answering that question, you might be interested to know that the NAACP is not exclusionary, in that you can be any race/color whatsoever, and be a member. What is the difference between the NAACP and the Ku Klux Klan?

Other questions to ponder: My children are the offspring of an African American woman (with some European and Native American ancestry), and a third generation German American man (both sides of his family are, as far as we know, 100% German caucasian). What are our children? If one were to have discernibly African American features, but the other looked entirely white, would one of them be white, and the other black, despite the fact that they both share exactly the same gene pool?

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

Do silvermoon and nbachris disagree as to whether there is such a thing as "whiteness" ?

My position is that whiteness does indeed exist (in other words, whiteness is not the default norm). However, the real debate is whether or not it is appropriate to create a racial club based on whiteness.

I think some people are under the impression that race-based organizations sprung up just for the hell of it. In reality, they came into existence because of discrimination or neglect from the majority population and society.

Are whites being discriminated or neglected by the majority population and society? If so, how?

BigG · Guru

Do silvermoon and nbachris disagree as to whether there is such a thing as "whiteness" ?

pima · Guru

No offense, silvermoon, but that last statement was a WOW.

Can you imagine if a white person stated, the same opinion with fill in the blank ethnicity.
No slam on them, but every now and then, there is a need to disengage. Sometimes the whiteness overwhelms.

If I stated as a white person, that I needed to disengage from AA, Hispanics, Asians, or Jews, I would be labeled a racist and ignorant to boot.

I think that is what some people are missing. In our kids school district that is very competitive academically, the % of white, black, Asian, and hispanic are all equal. There are no minorities per se.

It is okay for the minority groups to have clubs that are based on race, and it is not seen as racist, but if in the case of our school where there is no race majority, a white club would be the one that people would see as racist, even if they already have other ethnicity clubs that require race or religion as a pre-req.

This just doesn't make sense. If you are against racism, than you are against racism regardless of your background.

You can't call a white only club racist and deny them the right to form, if you allow other groups to keep people out. They are all racists equally. They all discriminate.

Goose meet the gander. Gander meet the goose.

-- Edited by pima on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 10:41:53 AM

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

I want to know how the conversation went from allowing racial student unions to bashing immigrants...

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

Chill.

First off..White is white...well I am Black but look white. I'll let you figure that out.

Second.. Who cares about a White Student Union..really. Doesn't impact me. How does the Black/Hispanic/Hillel/etc Student Union impact you? Who cares?

Finally, I like the idea of a Black/Hispanic/Hillel Unions. Sometimes one just needs a break from the white people. They're everywhere. No slam on them, but every now and then, there is a need to disengage. Sometimes the whiteness overwhelms.

Abyss · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:

Abyss wrote:

nbachris2788 wrote:
Most whites have never known what it's like to be in the minority, so some of them seem to assume that adjustment for minorities should be easy as pie.

Okay? Who gives a ****? Why do voluntary immigrants to the US deserve any helping hand at all? That's the whole point - they voluntarily immigrated. No one said it was going to be easy. No one said it wasn't going to be prejudiced.

If you immigrate to the US don't expect a damn thing.

Obviously, the idea of America exceptionalism is not shared among all of us.

In order for me to 'share' the idea I'd actually have to know what it meant.

When has any immigrant ever 'had it easy' in the US? When have they ever gotten a helping hand? Has it ever happened? The American exceptionalism, I'd say, is that people came to this country and didn't expect help. They worked their ass off until they succeeded (or until they failed, of course).

-- Edited by Abyss on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 12:24:25 AM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Abyss wrote:

nbachris2788 wrote:
Most whites have never known what it's like to be in the minority, so some of them seem to assume that adjustment for minorities should be easy as pie.

Okay? Who gives a ****? Why do voluntary immigrants to the US deserve any helping hand at all? That's the whole point - they voluntarily immigrated. No one said it was going to be easy. No one said it wasn't going to be prejudiced.

If you immigrate to the US don't expect a damn thing.

Obviously, the idea of America exceptionalism is not shared among all of us.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Soccerguy,

The fact is that blacks — whether they are from Mississippi or Mozambique — are unfortunately united in the fact that there's a significant chance that they'd be regarded and treated like a n*gger in America. This is, of course, not as commonplace as before, but it still remains potent.

I refuse to acknowledge white as an entity that warrants a special interest group on its behalf until people can come up with a coherent set of things that are under attack or neglected by mainstream America, and thus necessitates a special interest group like an ethnic/racial organization. I challenged you, Soccerguy, to do this, and you've yet to respond.

It is not enough to come up with a list of experiences, people, and histories that speak to and for white people more so than any other group of Americans. You must also prove that these things are somehow under attack or neglected by mainstream America.

I await your response.

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Monday 6th of December 2010 11:32:42 PM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Soccer players? They are all sweaty and smell bad. Sure they can kick a ball. On land. Try swimming and fighting with opponents who are trying to drown you in 12 feet deep water while throwing the ball.

Have you ever seen mens water polo?

Bonus points for smelling like chlorine instead of sweat.

soccerguy315 · Guru

nbachris2788 wrote:

To respond to Soccerguy:

what is wrong my definition of white? When you walk down the street, you can identify the black people, the white people, the asian people, the hispanic people... why? BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE. It is not "simple minded." It is the truth. If you see a black person, do you think "hey, that person might actually not be black, because I am not familiar with their personal history or specific characteristics?" No, no you do not. Stop with your jargon of political correctness or whatever you learned in your latest class. White-ness is PEOPLE THAT ARE WHITE. It is the same as black-ness, except those people are black. It is not that complicated.

The problem is that you're using a historically and culturally-laden term like "white" with absolutely no idea what it means. Who determined the "white look"? God? The concept is not even solely aesthetic, since many white-looking Caucasians from North Africa, Central Asia, or Western Asia would not be considered whites from the American perspective (unless they changed their name and lied about everything with regards to their heritage).

In contrast, anybody with a semblance of blackness is regarded as black in America (though there may be some internal debate within the black community, as in the Obama example). It's hypodescent vs hyperdescent.

I obviously recognize that some groups are not allowed to form because they are offensive. Please explain to me how a group of white people is more offensive than a group of black people.

Because a white students union would, most likely, be nothing more than a club of exclusion. It's be the equivalent of a non-white students union, which would be very offensive since they seem to have no other organizing principle besides being united in excluding a certain group.

How can you say "white student union" is exclusionary, but "black student union" is unifying? Are you serious?

Fine, I pose a challenge to you. Try to come up with a list of historical figures, artists, and cultural moments that whiteness has in common.

Mind you, these examples must have been dedicated SPECIFICALLY to the development of white America (so you can't say George Washington, unless you sincerely believe that he helped found America solely for white people), and it can't be regional (so you can't say William Faulkner, because he wrote specifically for Southern whites, which is a subset of white America).

How can a white student union be the opposite of non white student union, but black student union is not the opposite of non black student union? If you are taking issue with my word "opposite" I will grant you that, that black and white are not directly opposites since people can be other things also. However, "black student union" and "white student union" are identical, except they are for different colored people.

The fact is that both groups are for people of one color.

Please explain how you are using the term "colored" in "non-colored student union" so I can respond accurately. I need the definition of "colored." Are you trying to say that the white student union excludes non whites? Yes... and the black student union excludes non blacks.

Forget labels. Think of what these terms actually mean in real life. As I said before, white is not a category that has a common identity or experience to draw from, like black does. Instead, it's mainly a category that exists in opposition to non-white (aka colored, minorities). Therefore, the existence of a white students union — if examined at what it really entails — is simply a club for everybody who wouldn't be regarded as a person of color in American society. If white is defined by non-white, then the logical opposite of a white club would be a non-white club (aka a colored club, or a minorities-only club).

To my knowledge, such things don't exist in great quantities in America. And if they did, they'd almost be as wrong as a white students union (a small lenience could be made due to the fact that all minorities, to some extent, same a general form of discrimination, though I hardly think that's an adequate unifying principle).

btw, I have been to at least 14 countries. How many have you been to?

High school Eurotrip doesn't count.

I don't want to get into a pointless game of one-up-manship, but I've spent significant time (meaning study and/or work) in four different countries on three continents.

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:06:54 PM

no, the problem is that you are assigning extra definitions to "black" but not to "white." I am defining them as the way someone looks. Your definitions are unfair, IMO. To me, being white means that you are white. Being black means that you are black. It is very obvious who is what. You choose to define white as "not any of the other groups" but you do not choose to define blacks as "not any of the other groups," when that is also clearly true.

White student union = everyone who is not something else

Black student union = everyone who is not something else

There is no way a "white student union" is exclusionary, but not a "black student union." I really feel like you are playing with semantics here. You are trying to define "white" as a non-entity, and I don't understand why. I think you are trying to say that all black people have something in common and all white people do not. I 100% disagree. The previous example I posted of the rescued somalian child soldier vs. the black kid from the suburbs with 2 lawyer parents... they have nothing in common, yet they could still both join the "black student union." Well, they do have one thing in common... they are black.

Did George Washington fight the revolution for the benefit of black people? Doubtful. There have obviously been lots of influential white people. There have been lots of influential black people as well. Do you believe that someone like Rosa Parks or MLK Jr. only influenced blacks because they were black? If this is the case, I think it is misguided. These people were black, but they do not belong to only black people (just like the advancement of white people does not only benefit white people). They made significant advancements for society in the US as a whole.

the only other country I went to in HS was Canada. Thanks for playing though.

Honestly, I look forward to the day when people will stop caring about what color someone is. Maybe we will get there eventually.

-- Edited by soccerguy315 on Monday 6th of December 2010 09:40:30 PM

Abyss · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:
Most whites have never known what it's like to be in the minority, so some of them seem to assume that adjustment for minorities should be easy as pie.

Okay? Who gives a ****? Why do voluntary immigrants to the US deserve any helping hand at all? That's the whole point - they voluntarily immigrated. No one said it was going to be easy. No one said it wasn't going to be prejudiced.

If you immigrate to the US don't expect a damn thing.

busdriver11 · Guru

"Would you feel the same way towards other non-practical degrees as well? What about someone who majors in European history, which could also probably be known as "White European Male Studies"?

I don't tend to think of all non-practical degrees as absolutely silly as African American and Women's Studies. I would imagine that someone who majors in European history will probably continue towards a graduate degree or teaching. It doesn't seem to me as narrow a field (particularly as much as one whom is studying about themselves). And I fear my son sitting 5 feet away from me would like to major in drama (probably at the cost of 50K/year), so all I can say is....groan....and double major, double major.

"Most whites have never known what it's like to be in the minority, so some of them seem to assume that adjustment for minorities should be easy as pie"

I know exactly what is is like to be in a very small minority, and tell the truth, I am sick as crap of it. But I don't expect any special treatment or compensation, or anything different, no special groups. I just prefer to be treated as every other person with complete disreguard to my sex.

Abyss · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:

Hindoo wrote:

No, Chris. Let's make an exception for Landon Donovan. Please.

Do women actually like Landon Donovan? I always thought that was just a propaganda campaign by the US soccer big wigs. If I were a woman, I'd personally go for Carlos Bocanegra, Oguchi Onewyu, or Clint Dempsey.

Oh, and Benny Feilhaber. That's one good-looking dude.

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Monday 6th of December 2010 02:17:16 PM

Clint Dempsey? Methhead of the year for 2010? I'm not sure any single woman on the planet thinks he is attractive.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

To respond to Soccerguy:

what is wrong my definition of white? When you walk down the street, you can identify the black people, the white people, the asian people, the hispanic people... why? BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE. It is not "simple minded." It is the truth. If you see a black person, do you think "hey, that person might actually not be black, because I am not familiar with their personal history or specific characteristics?" No, no you do not. Stop with your jargon of political correctness or whatever you learned in your latest class. White-ness is PEOPLE THAT ARE WHITE. It is the same as black-ness, except those people are black. It is not that complicated.

The problem is that you're using a historically and culturally-laden term like "white" with absolutely no idea what it means. Who determined the "white look"? God? The concept is not even solely aesthetic, since many white-looking Caucasians from North Africa, Central Asia, or Western Asia would not be considered whites from the American perspective (unless they changed their name and lied about everything with regards to their heritage).

In contrast, anybody with a semblance of blackness is regarded as black in America (though there may be some internal debate within the black community, as in the Obama example). It's hypodescent vs hyperdescent.

I obviously recognize that some groups are not allowed to form because they are offensive. Please explain to me how a group of white people is more offensive than a group of black people.

Because a white students union would, most likely, be nothing more than a club of exclusion. It's be the equivalent of a non-white students union, which would be very offensive since they seem to have no other organizing principle besides being united in excluding a certain group.

How can you say "white student union" is exclusionary, but "black student union" is unifying? Are you serious?

Fine, I pose a challenge to you. Try to come up with a list of historical figures, artists, and cultural moments that whiteness has in common.

Mind you, these examples must have been dedicated SPECIFICALLY to the development of white America (so you can't say George Washington, unless you sincerely believe that he helped found America solely for white people), and it can't be regional (so you can't say William Faulkner, because he wrote specifically for Southern whites, which is a subset of white America).

How can a white student union be the opposite of non white student union, but black student union is not the opposite of non black student union? If you are taking issue with my word "opposite" I will grant you that, that black and white are not directly opposites since people can be other things also. However, "black student union" and "white student union" are identical, except they are for different colored people.

The fact is that both groups are for people of one color.

Please explain how you are using the term "colored" in "non-colored student union" so I can respond accurately. I need the definition of "colored." Are you trying to say that the white student union excludes non whites? Yes... and the black student union excludes non blacks.

Forget labels. Think of what these terms actually mean in real life. As I said before, white is not a category that has a common identity or experience to draw from, like black does. Instead, it's mainly a category that exists in opposition to non-white (aka colored, minorities). Therefore, the existence of a white students union — if examined at what it really entails — is simply a club for everybody who wouldn't be regarded as a person of color in American society. If white is defined by non-white, then the logical opposite of a white club would be a non-white club (aka a colored club, or a minorities-only club).

To my knowledge, such things don't exist in great quantities in America. And if they did, they'd almost be as wrong as a white students union (a small lenience could be made due to the fact that all minorities, to some extent, same a general form of discrimination, though I hardly think that's an adequate unifying principle).

btw, I have been to at least 14 countries. How many have you been to?

High school Eurotrip doesn't count.

I don't want to get into a pointless game of one-up-manship, but I've spent significant time (meaning study and/or work) in four different countries on three continents.

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:06:54 PM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

pima wrote:

First off, I get both sides of the argument.

Today if you look at "special treatment", white males are the ones that get none. If you are a white woman, you still get a leg up. If you are a black male you get an advantage. If you are a black female, you get more. The list goes on and on.

Due to this fact white males feel like they are SOL when it comes to anything, because they have no box to check off.

Next, I think it is incredibly stupid to go this route. What's the point? Hate to say it, but you harm society with this idiotic thinking. The only thing you prove is ignorance. We will never as a society get passed racism with crap like this.

I should say I am against Black, Asian, Hispanic, Male, Female, etc Student Unions. Why does a black person or a female feel the need for an all black/female student union in 2010?

Please explain to my feeble mind, what it accomplishes? Does it remove the race barrier, or does it build a larger barrier?

Are you saying if you belong to one of these unions/clubs that you do because they "GET YOU", will how on greens earth do you expect others to "GET YOU" if you don't discuss it openly amongst everyone?

Finally, if you support a Black/Hispanic/Asian, etc student union, than why oppose this? Isn't that hypocritical? Aren't you saying, what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

Would I want any of my kids to join any of these organizations? NO WAY! I don't care what it is, because in the end all of them have obtained the same goal...DISCRIMINATION. They all are causing race/ethnicity issues within our society.

Thus, instead of beaaching about the white union, how about acknowledging the other unions being at fault too, and agreeing none of them should exist.

Again, the only way to end discrimination is through education of ignorant people, keeping it your little bubble does nobody any good when it comes to that. If you feel you have been discriminated against and only talk to those who feel the same way, who did you educate?

I agree with you somewhat. I personally wouldn't join an Asian students union, though I could sort of understand why others would want to. And if I had kids, I'd rather that they freely mix in a diverse crowd, as opposed to potentially self-segregating themselves.

But on the other hand, I think too many white people take for granted just how everything is tailor-made for them. I can see how maybe a black student — who grew up in a black-majority neighborhood and a black-majority school suddenly finds himself in the great minority at university — might want to have something like a black students union.

Most whites have never known what it's like to be in the minority, so some of them seem to assume that adjustment for minorities should be easy as pie. And when whites do find themselves in the minority, history has shown that they tend to be hysterical (you can see this happening with "white flight" from schools that are being dominated by Asians).

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

busdriver11 wrote:

And even dumber than the multitudes of racially/sex based student union groups, is going to college for 4 years, and getting a degree in Women's Studies or African American Studies. Gee, I'm a woman, let me spend 4 years learning all about more women, wasting my parents money (or getting in debt) with nothing of use for employment. If any of you students are in these fields (and not double majoring), get out before it's too late and you waste all your money and time!!

To add, I'm sure that soccerguy and Abyss are majoring in these fields, so shape up, you two!

-- Edited by busdriver11 on Monday 6th of December 2010 08:26:56 AM

Would you feel the same way towards other non-practical degrees as well? What about someone who majors in European history, which could also probably be known as "White European Male Studies"?

I think it's a perfectly valid stance to take, that many liberal arts degrees are a luxury that too many think they can afford. But I'm wondering if you're drawing the lines evenly.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Hindoo wrote:

No, Chris. Let's make an exception for Landon Donovan. Please.

Do women actually like Landon Donovan? I always thought that was just a propaganda campaign by the US soccer big wigs. If I were a woman, I'd personally go for Carlos Bocanegra, Oguchi Onewyu, or Clint Dempsey.

Oh, and Benny Feilhaber. That's one good-looking dude.

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Monday 6th of December 2010 02:17:16 PM

Woodwork · Senior Member

Being from a different generation I'm probably missing the point, but a college degree seems a bit excessive if the point of study is for a young man --or woman-- interested in pursuing the subtle knowledge of women to get the lay of the land. There are books, pamphlets and youtube videos that could tell the would-be aficionado of women pretty much everything they would need to know for any conversation lasting as much as a typical 15 minute conversation.

For instance:

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

pima · Guru

I would bet if that is your major the student has a desire to get a Masters or pH.D in that field.

I do find it comical though if you major in that as a woman or an AA, how do you explain the opposition's POV if you only live in that bubble.

I.E. how does a woman say that society has wronged her when all she knows is one side?

I would be the 1st to say glass ceilings exist for women, but if you look at the bigger picture, where women leave to have children, it makes sense why men are in more CEO positions than their female counterparts.

If you use Hillary Clinton against Obama as an example, granted from an educational standpoint they had the same background, but society saw her time as 1st Lady as not a job, but a hostess. Thus, there is a dual standard. Obama was a community organizer, Hillary had world connections with leaders. Yet, nobody saw that as an asset, and the reason why IMHO is because she had 2 X's and no Y.

It can be floated both ways why we as women hit the ceiling faster than men.

-- Edited by pima on Monday 6th of December 2010 12:30:35 PM

Hindoo · Senior Member

I have to agree with you on that one, busdriver. To burn through four years and many thousands of dollars studying about yourself ... Eh. Seems to me the time and money could better spent. But, I guess, whatever float's one's boat. hmm

busdriver11 · Guru

And even dumber than the multitudes of racially/sex based student union groups, is going to college for 4 years, and getting a degree in Women's Studies or African American Studies. Gee, I'm a woman, let me spend 4 years learning all about more women, wasting my parents money (or getting in debt) with nothing of use for employment. If any of you students are in these fields (and not double majoring), get out before it's too late and you waste all your money and time!!

To add, I'm sure that soccerguy and Abyss are majoring in these fields, so shape up, you two! smile

-- Edited by busdriver11 on Monday 6th of December 2010 08:26:56 AM

pima · Guru

First off, I get both sides of the argument.

Today if you look at "special treatment", white males are the ones that get none. If you are a white woman, you still get a leg up. If you are a black male you get an advantage. If you are a black female, you get more. The list goes on and on.

Due to this fact white males feel like they are SOL when it comes to anything, because they have no box to check off.

Next, I think it is incredibly stupid to go this route. What's the point? Hate to say it, but you harm society with this idiotic thinking. The only thing you prove is ignorance. We will never as a society get passed racism with crap like this.

I should say I am against Black, Asian, Hispanic, Male, Female, etc Student Unions. Why does a black person or a female feel the need for an all black/female student union in 2010?

Please explain to my feeble mind, what it accomplishes? Does it remove the race barrier, or does it build a larger barrier?

Are you saying if you belong to one of these unions/clubs that you do because they "GET YOU", will how on greens earth do you expect others to "GET YOU" if you don't discuss it openly amongst everyone?

Finally, if you support a Black/Hispanic/Asian, etc student union, than why oppose this? Isn't that hypocritical? Aren't you saying, what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander?

Would I want any of my kids to join any of these organizations? NO WAY! I don't care what it is, because in the end all of them have obtained the same goal...DISCRIMINATION. They all are causing race/ethnicity issues within our society.

Thus, instead of beaaching about the white union, how about acknowledging the other unions being at fault too, and agreeing none of them should exist.

Again, the only way to end discrimination is through education of ignorant people, keeping it your little bubble does nobody any good when it comes to that. If you feel you have been discriminated against and only talk to those who feel the same way, who did you educate?

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

IMO one should not paint the Latinos/Hispanics as victims. No one forces them to immigrate in the manner AA's were coerced.

This is an interesting link;
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Scottish_American

Note the African American section.

-- Edited by BigG on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:20:41 AM

Exactly, voluntary immigrants deserve no "helping hand". Basically, if you come here - you're on your own. Expect no help. In fact, expect it's going to be very hard.

Woodwork · Senior Member

Being a white male myself, I cannot think of a group of people I would least like to be with than those that would be enthusiastic about being in a “white” union of any kind. What a bunch of Nimrods this gaggle of fools would be (thank god this was a hoax). It could only be one step removed from hanging out in the “I’m a douche-bag and I have no life” student union. All the race-talk aside…what a bunch of losers that would be…and unionized! That’s just too rich.

However, I am also tired of hearing mushy-liberals talking about the supposed unified sameness of other ethnic groups, whether they be African American, Hispanic, Indian, Arab, Australian or Irish. Are there no limits to the condescension and paternalism of guilt-ridden do-gooders and their desire to patronize and condescend to “the disadvantaged” (another crap designation)?

My wife has a different racial heritage than mine. I believe the same is true of Poetsheart. Believe me when I tell you, my wife (daughter or son) would not join a social-union of her race. Though she has a different and quite visible racial heritage and a number of friends from that heritage, I do not think she would ever allow anyone to identify her as “that” under any circumstances. She is unique because she is unique, not because she was born into a specific gene pool, and no matter what anyone might stereo-typically think of that gene pool, and whether they believe it deserves praise or mercy in the eyes of racist liberals or conservatives in sheep’s or wolves clothing.

BigG · Guru

IMO one should not paint the Latinos/Hispanics as victims. No one forces them to immigrate in the manner AA's were coerced.

This is an interesting link;
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Scottish_American

Note the African American section.

-- Edited by BigG on Monday 6th of December 2010 03:20:41 AM

soccerguy315 · Guru

romanigypsyeyes wrote:

Sorry, I'm not taking the time to read this whole thread (will later). Finals have kept me away for a while and I'm not getting swept up in a political debate for AT LEAST another week.

To answer the first question (and sorry if this is a repeat of many others), no it isn't inheritantly racist. However, it's dumb to deny the implications. African Americans have a distinct culture as many of them are from the descendants of slaves. Even if they wanted to have separate "Somalian" or "Congo" clubs, many don't know their heritage. A very unique and distinct African American culture has developed here in America. It's fine to celebrate that. I can't really comment on Asian clubs because I'm really not too familiar with them. Hispanics and Latinos are some of the most discriminated people here in America (occasionally now even surpassing the racism experienced by African Americans). It is perfectly natural for that union or group to form as it is very much a living breathing problem (same can be applied to African American clubs) that they are facing today. Sorry, but whites just don't face the same type of discrimination.

Furthermore, in the case of African Americans, Hispanics/Latinos, and even some Asians- it is the fault of Europeans that they even NEED any kind of clubs in the first place. We have stripped them of their original identity, forced them to bend and meld to European (white) standards in order for them to survive. Whites don't really need to celebrate their collective "white" culture since it is all around us and the dominant force every day. Now, if people want to start an "Irish" club or something like that, then fine- you are trying to celebrate your heritage. However, quite simply, what is the point of celebrating being "white" in a society started, created, formed, and dominated by "white" culture? It seems about as dumb as people in China making an "Asian" pride club in school.

Inheritantly racist? No. Dumb? In my opinion, yes. Do they have the right to make the club? Yes. Should they? Common sense dictates otherwise.

Disclaimer: I am white. Well, on paper I am Caucasian/Hispanic because my mom is from Spain, but I am a light skinned, blue eyed, white female for all intents and purposes. I really have no bones in this fight.

Why would it be dumb for Chinese to make an Asian pride group at their school in Asia?