Political & Elections

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

RE: White Student Union - Inherently Racist?

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

soccerguy315 wrote:

weren't you arguing earlier in the thread that black people have an inherent connection with each other by being black, and therefore their "black" organizations are appropriate, while the same couldn't be said for whites? and now you are arguing that black or white is not the factor that connects people with your UChicago example?

Hey you're back. Maybe you'll finally answer the question of what the organizing principle of a white students union would be, a question you kept ducking until you disappeared for a while.

And yes, I did say that. But it's not because there's some kind of psycho-biological link among blacks or anything. In the unique environment of America, blacks (or people who look black) are still treated in a manner that — in the opinion of many — necessitate a kind of "strength in numbers" organization. Of course, this was much more true in the past, and in the near future, hopefully such the need for such organizations will disappear.

In other words, it's a social thing, not a biologically-inherent thing. If a black guy went to a black-majority country where blacks don't face a significant level of discrimination, then there would be no need for such a union, and therefore no "inherent connection".

Moreover, while a white students union in America would be largely pointless, a white students union would be foreseeable in a country where whites are in the great minority and their interests marginalized by a dominant non-white majority.

ImSoAnarchist · Senior Member

I don't see the point of any of this. Some people are like some people. Other people are like other people. Often, the similar people (as they subjectively and personally define "similar") like to group themselves together, for whatever reason.

To think you're like another person isn't objective; it's subjective. So when someone says they feel more comfortable or "closer" to white people, no matter if they're Asians or Europeans; they're not wrong, they just have a different basis for whom is and whom is not similar to them (and it doesn't matter how arbitrary you *think* it is).

Game over. That's all there is to it.

Abyss · Senior Member

soccerguy315 wrote:

weren't you arguing earlier in the thread that black people have an inherent connection with each other by being black, and therefore their "black" organizations are appropriate, while the same couldn't be said for whites? and now you are arguing that black or white is not the factor that connects people with your UChicago example?

Did I say it wasn't a factor? Please - you can quote me.

I simply said that compared to an random white American and a random white Dutchman there was more connection. Please, use your brain a bit.

soccerguy315 · Guru

weren't you arguing earlier in the thread that black people have an inherent connection with each other by being black, and therefore their "black" organizations are appropriate, while the same couldn't be said for whites? and now you are arguing that black or white is not the factor that connects people with your UChicago example?

Abyss · Senior Member

Who is more similar to one another? A white person and black person who are both from Illinois and attended UChicago together as engineering majors, or a white American and, say, a Dutchman? If they were thrown into a social mixer, in which way would the social gravitation pull towards?The former comparison, obviously (but does UChicago even have engineering?). I fail to see your point though.

I suspect that initial psychological reactions that humans have in regards to people who look similar to not to them is an instinct. Something that has grown from 50K-100K years of human violence towards groups that didn't look similar to them.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Abyss,

Who is more similar to one another? A white person and black person who are both from Illinois and attended UChicago together as engineering majors, or a white American and, say, a Dutchman? If they were thrown into a social mixer, in which way would the social gravitation pull towards?

Abyss · Senior Member

You said that people are naturally prone to associate with their types, and these types can be categorized by racial features.Obviously, people associate with others that are similar to themselves.

If so, then why are certain features (for example, skin colour) given more priority as an indicator of race than other features (such as hair colour and eye colour)? It seems to me that we're working backwards from a pre-determined notion of set races, and coming up with inconsistent standards to justify those sets.What are you talking about? People don't just do that. Visually there are many queues which show genetic background. Skin color is easy for lay people. There are many other traits that could easily be looked at though.

Population geneticists can determine background by analyzing DNA. They don't look at skin color.

You're the one who said that "blacks" (presumably meaning sub-Saharan Africans) were better sprinters than whites.Apparently you can't read because I merely said that whites don't run under 10.00s times in the 100 meter sprint. I didn't mention "blacks" at all.

That's a meaningless generalization, considering those superior black sprinters come from only a certain part of Africa. The failure to make a distinction between West Africans and East Africans just because they're "black" is just sheer laziness.Well, good thing I never said that.

You might as well say that Egyptians are better sprinters than whites because Egyptians are Africans too, at least continentally-speaking.You are being an idiot - refuting an argument I never made.

If you want to say that certain West Africans have certain genetic predispositions that might have correlative properties, then I won't argue. But to go that specific means that there's no unified black race, and that even among them blacks in Africa, there are big differences. Oh man! That's too much trouble! Can't we all just call them "blacks" and leave it be???Stop being an idiot.

I've already stated my beliefs - that generally groups who lived near eachother have similar genetics compared to groups that lived farther apart. Yes, there are caveats all over the place, but that broad statement is true if you believe in evolution. Liberals hate this argument, of course.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Abyss,

You said that people are naturally prone to associate with their types, and these types can be categorized by racial features.

If so, then why are certain features (for example, skin colour) given more priority as an indicator of race than other features (such as hair colour and eye colour)? It seems to me that we're working backwards from a pre-determined notion of set races, and coming up with inconsistent standards to justify those sets.

You're the one who said that "blacks" (presumably meaning sub-Saharan Africans) were better sprinters than whites. That's a meaningless generalization, considering those superior black sprinters come from only a certain part of Africa. The failure to make a distinction between West Africans and East Africans just because they're "black" is just sheer laziness.

You might as well say that Egyptians are better sprinters than whites because Egyptians are Africans too, at least continentally-speaking.

If you want to say that certain West Africans have certain genetic predispositions that might have correlative properties, then I won't argue. But to go that specific means that there's no unified black race, and that even among them blacks in Africa, there are big differences. Oh man! That's too much trouble! Can't we all just call them "blacks" and leave it be???

Abyss · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:

Abyss wrote:

nbachris2788 wrote:

Abyss,

Who decides which racial phenotypes delineate different types then? Are ginger-haired Celts a different race than blonde Welsh? Different hair colour is just as dramatic and noteworthy as different skin colour.

Going by appearance alone, one can find just as many differences within the popularly-accepted races as between them. Not to mention all those people who don't fit into the "White-Black-Asian" model that has defined the American racial experience.

The world is either made up of many many many races (far more than the infantile 3-race model of the United States), or none at all. People just tend to make lazy connections where none exist.

1) Population geneticists would be able to describe different racial phenotypes. Hair color and skin color are just one of several hundred traits which are *visually* apparent.

2) Many laypeople think of race as some sort of binary distinction. It's not. It's a question of distributions, probabilities, and statistics. It's best to think of different racial groups on a global perspective. People that lived closer together are much more likely to have similar genetics than two that lived farther apart (of course I'm talking ~1500AD 'people').

3) Race is very important. Probably the most important thing we can't talk about. Just look at the 100M races. How many white guys have ever run below 10.00 seconds? Two?

On what scientific basis are we using when we use skin colour to denote race more than hair colour? Other than our own subjective racial experience?
How many East Africans have run below 10.00 seconds? How many Jamaicans have won marathons? I thought they were all black!
My point is that yes, we can observe certain traits among certain groups of people who have adapted themselves to a certain climate and environment. But these groups do not correlate neatly into our lazy notions of races. Yet people do take the lazy out way out all the time, such as saying that ALL Africans are superior sprinters when in fact, the best sprinters come only from a very select part of Africa.
Oh well, they all black, ain't they?!

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Friday 17th of December 2010 07:59:11 PM

1) Is anyone using skin color phenotypes to mean anything? I didn't realize that was a controversial statement.

2) You are an idiot if you think "all" of anything is superior to all of "all" off anything. Genetics dictates what is true and false.

longprime · Guru

you like me? evileye

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Abyss wrote:

nbachris2788 wrote:

Abyss,

Who decides which racial phenotypes delineate different types then? Are ginger-haired Celts a different race than blonde Welsh? Different hair colour is just as dramatic and noteworthy as different skin colour.

Going by appearance alone, one can find just as many differences within the popularly-accepted races as between them. Not to mention all those people who don't fit into the "White-Black-Asian" model that has defined the American racial experience.

The world is either made up of many many many races (far more than the infantile 3-race model of the United States), or none at all. People just tend to make lazy connections where none exist.

1) Population geneticists would be able to describe different racial phenotypes. Hair color and skin color are just one of several hundred traits which are *visually* apparent.

2) Many laypeople think of race as some sort of binary distinction. It's not. It's a question of distributions, probabilities, and statistics. It's best to think of different racial groups on a global perspective. People that lived closer together are much more likely to have similar genetics than two that lived farther apart (of course I'm talking ~1500AD 'people').

3) Race is very important. Probably the most important thing we can't talk about. Just look at the 100M races. How many white guys have ever run below 10.00 seconds? Two?

On what scientific basis are we using when we use skin colour to denote race more than hair colour? Other than our own subjective racial experience?

How many East Africans have run below 10.00 seconds? How many Jamaicans have won marathons? I thought they were all black!

My point is that yes, we can observe certain traits among certain groups of people who have adapted themselves to a certain climate and environment. But these groups do not correlate neatly into our lazy notions of races. Yet people do take the lazy out way out all the time, such as saying that ALL Africans are superior sprinters when in fact, the best sprinters come only from a very select part of Africa.

Oh well, they all black, ain't they?!

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Friday 17th of December 2010 07:59:11 PM

Abyss · Senior Member

Woodwork wrote:

Just as an aside, it would probably be better for all of us to not refer to one another as an "idot," while still making the same point. In fact, the point is made better that way. No big deal. Just a little soft advice.

It's more fun to insult at the same time. I don't care if people agree or disagree with me. The strength of the argument will convince on its merits. If not, then the argument is weak or the readers are idiots.

Abyss · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:

Abyss,

Who decides which racial phenotypes delineate different types then? Are ginger-haired Celts a different race than blonde Welsh? Different hair colour is just as dramatic and noteworthy as different skin colour.

Going by appearance alone, one can find just as many differences within the popularly-accepted races as between them. Not to mention all those people who don't fit into the "White-Black-Asian" model that has defined the American racial experience.

The world is either made up of many many many races (far more than the infantile 3-race model of the United States), or none at all. People just tend to make lazy connections where none exist.

1) Population geneticists would be able to describe different racial phenotypes. Hair color and skin color are just one of several hundred traits which are *visually* apparent.

2) Many laypeople think of race as some sort of binary distinction. It's not. It's a question of distributions, probabilities, and statistics. It's best to think of different racial groups on a global perspective. People that lived closer together are much more likely to have similar genetics than two that lived farther apart (of course I'm talking ~1500AD 'people').

3) Race is very important. Probably the most important thing we can't talk about. Just look at the 100M races. How many white guys have ever run below 10.00 seconds? Two?

Abyss · Senior Member

Poetsheart wrote:

Quoting Abyss:
Yeah, lets get rid of those old white men! What have those bastards ever done anything for the human race? Time to execute those evil white men that never did anything. Absolutely laughable./quote

Huh? Who said anything (ANYTHING!) about "getting rid of old white men---other than you, Abyss? Knocked down any good strawmen lately?

Did you watch the video?

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

busdriver11 wrote:

This is a fascinating conversation, really.

Doesn't it appear obvious that we should all associate and hang out with whomever we choose? Whether we work or socialize with people of different skin color/personality, sex, religion, politics or whatever....who has the right to say we should associate with someone different than we do? Some people choose to associate with those whom are exactly the same, others find different people more interesting.

I am generally far more comfortable socializing with, and have more camraderie and things in common, with men. I don't often have much in common with their wives. But sometimes I enjoy talking with women (who are often more different than me, oddly, but I find it interesting). When you find a connection with whatever person or group, who among us has the right to criticize what we choose?

I know what you're trying to say, but the problem specifically with race is that unlike segregation by gender or interest or personality, it is entirely possible to go through one's life without having any meaningful contact with someone of a different race. In contrast, with regards to gender or personality, you are at least guaranteed to have close relations with someone of the opposite gender (because of your parents, spouse, and possibly siblings), and personality types vary so much within families that it's impossible to know ONLY artistic introverts or binge-drinking extroverts in your life.

Total segregation and ignorance by race is more possible, and consequently, more erroneous information can arise as a result.

busdriver11 · Guru

Now jazzy, I must add, with a very useless-to-this-conversation comment: That is one very impressive emoticon.

jazzy · Senior Member

Spoilsport!

I was just thinking the same thing.

"Don't be an idiot" is practically the signature line for Mr. P/Abyss.

I have many a time wanted to usurp it at an opportune moment....... 'As our friend Mr. Abyss, would say: "Don't be an idiot,'" I longed to sneer incisively, perhaps adding an emoticon with a wink or a superior smirk.

Now, woodwork, with your call for reasoned adult conversation, you have dashed that dream.

busdriver11 · Guru

This is a fascinating conversation, really.

Doesn't it appear obvious that we should all associate and hang out with whomever we choose? Whether we work or socialize with people of different skin color/personality, sex, religion, politics or whatever....who has the right to say we should associate with someone different than we do? Some people choose to associate with those whom are exactly the same, others find different people more interesting.

I am generally far more comfortable socializing with, and have more camraderie and things in common, with men. I don't often have much in common with their wives. But sometimes I enjoy talking with women (who are often more different than me, oddly, but I find it interesting). When you find a connection with whatever person or group, who among us has the right to criticize what we choose?

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Did anyone watch the youtube video I linked? What did you think?

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Poetsheart wrote:

Quoting Abyss:
Yeah, lets get rid of those old white men! What have those bastards ever done anything for the human race? Time to execute those evil white men that never did anything. Absolutely laughable./quote

Huh? Who said anything (ANYTHING!) about "getting rid of old white men---other than you, Abyss? Knocked down any good strawmen lately?

Don Quixote to the rescue!

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Abyss,

Who decides which racial phenotypes delineate different types then? Are ginger-haired Celts a different race than blonde Welsh? Different hair colour is just as dramatic and noteworthy as different skin colour.

Going by appearance alone, one can find just as many differences within the popularly-accepted races as between them. Not to mention all those people who don't fit into the "White-Black-Asian" model that has defined the American racial experience.

The world is either made up of many many many races (far more than the infantile 3-race model of the United States), or none at all. People just tend to make lazy connections where none exist.

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

Spoilsport!

Woodwork · Senior Member

Just as an aside, it would probably be better for all of us to not refer to one another as an "idot," while still making the same point. In fact, the point is made better that way. No big deal. Just a little soft advice.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Quoting Abyss:
Yeah, lets get rid of those old white men! What have those bastards ever done anything for the human race? Time to execute those evil white men that never did anything. Absolutely laughable./quote

Huh? confuse

Who said anything (ANYTHING!) about "getting rid of old white men---other than you, Abyss? Knocked down any good strawmen lately?

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

Silver, my apologies. I wasn't insinuating you had a problem with it. Sorry if it came across like that. It was meant to be a general statement. Sorry for the confusion.

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

Good Morning.

Poetsheart articulated my point. Thank you very much :) . I'd like to think I'd have gotten to that point eventually.

And to respond to Pmrlcomm, and as I have been consistently stating, I have no problem with a white student union. I have no problem with anyone needing a break frm anyone else. "I" wouldn't consider it racist if any white person needed a break from Black people. Indeed, why should I even care? I guess I don't understand why the original statement was offensive.

Abyss · Senior Member

That depends on whether the white person is an expat or not.

A white person who was born and raised in China is probably more likely to feel more at home among Chinese people than with white people who barely know anything about the country.

Unless you think that there's some kind of mystical white connection that transcends all boundaries. Maybe they can sit around and bond over how easy it is to get freckles?Don't be an idiot. The obvious comparison would be between two people of the same cultural background and the same race. Two whites that grew up in China, etc.

Who says type has to be defined by racial phenotypes?

There's certainly nothing wrong with having a comfort zone. There is something wrong with never leaving that comfort zone, and consequently believing all sorts of BS about all those outside of that comfort zone.Type most certainly has to be partially defined by racial phenotypes. As psychologists are discovering...it's hardwired.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Abyss said:

This is a reasonable point. If a white person is living in Asia it's not strange to seek out similar people.

That depends on whether the white person is an expat or not.

A white person who was born and raised in China is probably more likely to feel more at home among Chinese people than with white people who barely know anything about the country.

Unless you think that there's some kind of mystical white connection that transcends all boundaries. Maybe they can sit around and bond over how easy it is to get freckles?

The modern PC-punditry somehow likes to say it's bad that people feel more comfortable around their own type. Duh - this is hardwired into us from evolution. If you saw someone from ancient times (pre-agricultural) that didn't look like you - chances are you were gonna try to kill them.

Who says type has to be defined by racial phenotypes?

There's certainly nothing wrong with having a comfort zone. There is something wrong with never leaving that comfort zone, and consequently believing all sorts of BS about all those outside of that comfort zone.

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

I understand what you are saying Poet. To each his own. Is it any more wrong that I don't really care about the plight of the minority at this point? I'm trying to keep a job, keep a house out of foreclosure, keep my son from getting so depressed he off's himself, etc... Life's not a bowl of peaches for 99% of us. I'm sorry that people are ignorant and treat people differently based on skin color rather than their actions but that isn't likely to change soon. I applaud Silver for putting her kid's education first but it's what any responsible parent would do. It doesn't bother me in the least that she needs a break from white people so long as it is ok that someone else needs a break from black people or gay people or people with red hair.

Man, after re-reading my posts from this morning I must have taken a no-filter pill...

Abyss · Senior Member

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=hd6Unz4z6U

Yeah, lets get rid of those old white men! What have those bastards ever done anything for the human race? Time to execute those evil white men that never did anything. Absolutely laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

Do leftists see how incredibly idiotic they are?

-- Edited by Abyss on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 11:13:33 PM

Abyss · Senior Member

Poetsheart wrote:

This is a very interesting conversation because it highlights the differences in perspective between posters here. I think silvermoonlock is being somewhat misunderstood, and has been chided for her views, based on an inability to see things from her perspective. It may also be because she hasn't yet managed to make her views as clear as she would like.

Personally, I'd like to put forth a hypothetical scenario: Suppose for a moment that you are a white person living in a predominantly black society, one in which whiteness has long carried with it a taint of inferiority. Most of your day to day activities involve being around lots of black people, both at school, and at work. The vast majority of mass media features black people who have always symbolized the defacto norm, the defacto standard of beauty, and overall, that which society implies to be preferable.

Might you ever desire to "retreat" from what you experience as a state of perpetual racial disadvantage, and seek out the company of whites who share your experience, and who don't see your skin color or culture as an inherent deficit? If numerous past experiences have taught you that black people may judge you negatively based on your skin color, and black people comprise the great majority of larger society, how might this fact affect you from day to day? As it happens, even with blacks who don't view you as somehow inferior, you inevitably find yourself trying to "explain" yourself to no avail. They simply can't (or won't) accept your feelings as being valid or based on cause. This is what I believe silvermoonlock was trying to convey (though, perhaps I also misunderstand her...); the weariness that comes with having to wonder if you'll have to, at any given moment, emotionally guard yourself against subtle (and occasionally, overt) instances of racial bigotry wears on the psyche over time. The desire to seek out others who both understand your social dilemma and accept you as you are, can be a powerful force. Silvermoon has not expressed the desire to "only surround herself with black people" (indeed, she has said that most of her day to day interactions are happily multi-racial) , only to occasionally avail herself of the comfort that comes with being able to let down her guard, and be with others of shared experience and background.

This is a reasonable point. If a white person is living in Asia it's not strange to seek out similar people.

The modern PC-punditry somehow likes to say it's bad that people feel more comfortable around their own type. Duh - this is hardwired into us from evolution. If you saw someone from ancient times (pre-agricultural) that didn't look like you - chances are you were gonna try to kill them.

Poetsheart · Senior Member

Research, btw, has shown over and over that children develop a very distinct understanding of the implications of skin color, and at a suprisingly early age. And it doesn't matter if their well meaning parents carefully avoid talking about race and skin color. Even babies notice differences in skin color, though they don't assign any sort of value to those differences until they are socialized to do so. Socialization happens in a variety of settings, however, and not just the home environment.

CNN aired a special report on Kids and Race, and some might find it quite illuminating. I highly encourage the viewing of this and other You-tube clips from the program (which I watched in its entirety when it was first aired).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAuO0PNnrs&feature=related

Poetsheart · Senior Member

This is a very interesting conversation because it highlights the differences in perspective between posters here. I think silvermoonlock is being somewhat misunderstood, and has been chided for her views, based on an inability to see things from her perspective. It may also be because she hasn't yet managed to make her views as clear as she would like.

Personally, I'd like to put forth a hypothetical scenario: Suppose for a moment that you are a white person living in a predominantly black society, one in which whiteness has long carried with it a taint of inferiority. Most of your day to day activities involve being around lots of black people, both at school, and at work. The vast majority of mass media features black people who have always symbolized the defacto norm, the defacto standard of beauty, and overall, that which society implies to be preferable.

Might you ever desire to "retreat" from what you experience as a state of perpetual racial disadvantage, and seek out the company of whites who share your experience, and who don't see your skin color or culture as an inherent deficit? If numerous past experiences have taught you that black people may judge you negatively based on your skin color, and black people comprise the great majority of larger society, how might this fact affect you from day to day? As it happens, even with blacks who don't view you as somehow inferior, you inevitably find yourself trying to "explain" yourself to no avail. They simply can't (or won't) accept your feelings as being valid or based on cause. This is what I believe silvermoonlock was trying to convey (though, perhaps I also misunderstand her...); the weariness that comes with having to wonder if you'll have to, at any given moment, emotionally guard yourself against subtle (and occasionally, overt) instances of racial bigotry wears on the psyche over time. The desire to seek out others who both understand your social dilemma and accept you as you are, can be a powerful force. Silvermoon has not expressed the desire to "only surround herself with black people" (indeed, she has said that most of her day to day interactions are happily multi-racial) , only to occasionally avail herself of the comfort that comes with being able to let down her guard, and be with others of shared experience and background.

pima · Guru

Please do not think I think it is a horrible thing. I am a woman, and I get the fact that hanging with women can be a release mechanism. However, I don't say I need to be with them because I need to escape "men".

That is how I have read your posts. It comes across IMPO that this is a place to vent about how they don't get us.

I like being with Black people. You make it sound like that's a horrible thing. I should be ashamed of myself for enjoying the company of Black people. Is that really what you mean?

It isn't, but let's acknowledge today's society. If a white person said the exact same thing they would be called a racist.

If a guy only hung with guys he would be called a sexist.

I think there are double standards, and I hope you agree that if either of these scenarios occurred you would agree negative labels would fly for them.

I don't think you should be an ambassador.

I do hold white people at arms length initially.

Now flip it for the white person. If they held a black person at arms length they would be classified as a racist, correct? How is it equality if you can hold people off at arms length because you are black, and not be shunned or called names, but if a white person did it they would be shunned and called names.

Where is the equality?

Now explain this to me. If I am perpetuating the ignorance, why would I have even considered sending my child to a school where we knew going in, she'd be a true rare minority, in so many categories - lol.

Easy! Because what matter most to you was the quality of education she was going to get academically.

However, school is only one part of the equation, life at home is another. Actions are still another. Books are books, 2 +2 = 4, and every kid gets that. How their parents interact with society is a different issue.

Let's use the fact that those stupid magazines we give out in elementary have always predicted every president for 50 yrs minus 1. Why? Because kids hear what their folks say in adult conversations. They don't really know the difference between one candidate or another, but what they know is what they over hear/ If they hear their parents speak in a negative light about one candidate over another, they get that.

I get where you are coming from, but I think for us in this manner we have hit an impasse. If you met me in a personal situation you would want me to prove myself first before you accepted me. Me on the other hand, I would accept you at face value for who you are.

That is a sad commentary on how bad our racial relations really are.

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

Ah, the joys of a message board. The meet you halfway remark was in response to Woodwork calling me lazy. I was referring to the masses, or even people on this board or you, Pima. I will meet you halfway. Of course I don't have to reach out to my friends, but it's the reaching out, say, to the people who got up and left when we sat down at the table. I reached out and they slapped my hand. Should I go for more abuse? Beat me much?

It appears that we will will never see each others perspective. I look in the mirror. I see a Black woman. I like being with Black people. You make it sound like that's a horrible thing. I should be ashamed of myself for enjoying the company of Black people. Is that really what you mean? Am I to be an ambassador of diversity every single waking moment of my life? You are judging me for acknowledging that I enjoy the company of Black people.

You've missed the point where I am connected with many people in many situations, but I still need the break. I may leave the male cops and go hang out with my girlfriends. I may leave the stupid at work and go hang out with the geeky techs. I may leave the girls and go hang out with the guys. Race is just a category. I am not looking at it as end-all be-all criteria for everything that matters in life to Silvermoonlock. I am not going act like race doesn't exist because, as much as you dismiss the ignorance I endured, it happened and it still happens and will continue to happen as much as we'd like to pretend that it won't. It makes me acutely aware that I am Black.

I do hold white people at arms length initially. Precisely because of incidents similar to what happened at the school. Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me. I need to know before I make the effort that I'm not walking into racist bull-crap. That is what my life experiences have taught me. Some idiots I encountered early on makes me wary now. Not your fault, but that is the fall-out. Armor goes up until the all-clear signal is sounded.

My child does have different perspective. Now explain this to me. If I am perpetuating the ignorance, why would I have even considered sending my child to a school where we knew going in, she'd be a true rare minority, in so many categories - lol.

Ya know, I am not a bad person, just because I refuse to take race out of the equation. Acknowledge it, embrace it and move on.

pima · Guru

Silver I am assuming the last parts were directed at me.

I am not clear as to the conclusion that my friends either do not care for me or are bigots. I cannot see the jump to that statement. My friends, Black, White, Hispanic, Martian, do not sit around discussing race relations on regular basis. Our friendships are not based on solving social problems? But guess what. I need a periodic break from them also.

If you go back and read your posts I was responding to you.

You stated why YOU SHOULD HAVE TO REACH OUT and WHY YOU MUST MEET THEM HALF WAY.

Anyone who truly cares for you personally would not make you REACH OUT or MEET HALF WAY.

That is why I stated you need new friends or you are hanging out with bigots.

The older I get the more I realize that friends and acquaintances are two different things. I need to step away from acquaintances, I walk towards my friends.

Friendships are based on moral values IMHPO. You need to be on the same page. You may not discuss social problems, but if your conversation is just about kids and your latest greatest bargain, than for me I don't put them in the friendship column, I put them in the acquaintance column.

Again, that is just me.

It's your choice to raise your children to not use color as a descriptor. It's kind of hard from this side of the fence. Our child learned that character made a difference, regardless of color. She was the only Black student in her HS graduating class. She had some interesting experiences from that, as did her father and I, including having an entire table of parents get up and leave when we sat down at the table. But that's another story for another day.

I am sorry for the ignorance you endured, but by continuing to perpetrate skin color as me or you, you allow this ignorance to continue. You allow people to judge based on pigmentation. You are saying that because I am white you hold me at arms length.

Our children not only learn from what we say, but we do. You needing to be with your "racial group" implies to them to put up walls and create boundaries because in your opinion, my group isn't on your side of the fence, so we could never imagine how you feel.

I don't think I can ever imagine, but at least I am trying to make a small part in fixing that. Our DS has a mild form of Aspergers, can you imagine living with that? No! However, if you are educated on the subject you would do everything to balance it out. Just by educating your children on what it is, you changed the world, even if it was a small amount, it made the difference.

I could never discuss our DS and ASpergers in public, but what good would it do? I could just talk about it with other Asperger parents and never enlighten anyone of my life. How does that help remove the stigma or change anything? It doesn't.

It is your choice to hang with black organizations to feel connected. Yet, that won't stop discrimination and people being ignorant.

Cliche, but true when it comes to racial groups...

Preaching to choir!

-- Edited by pima on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 09:37:41 AM

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

A little housekeeping. It's nice to get this out and explore this. Next - I have never stated that You (collectively) place your skin color above human kindness/respect. Apparently I cannot adequately communicate what I feel. I can try analogies.

Issue: I am surrounded by white. Solution: I step back and find a comfort zone.
Issue: I'm at the beach and the sun is hot. Solution: I find shade/shelter (a comfort zone).
Issue: I've spent a day with male cops with their uber testosterone. Solution: I run screaming out the building and desperately start looking for something pink.
Issue: Right now I am surrounded by stupid (at work). Solution: I close my door and bang my head on the desk.

This is all temporary. I need a break. Heck, we all need a break from something, then go back doing whatever you do. Your head is clear and you feel rejuvenated.

Some comments were made that puzzle me. I am not clear as to the conclusion that my friends either do not care for me or are bigots. I cannot see the jump to that statement. My friends, Black, White, Hispanic, Martian, do not sit around discussing race relations on regular basis. Our friendships are not based on solving social problems? But guess what. I need a periodic break from them also.

It's your choice to raise your children to not use color as a descriptor. It's kind of hard from this side of the fence. Our child learned that character made a difference, regardless of color. She was the only Black student in her HS graduating class. She had some interesting experiences from that, as did her father and I, including having an entire table of parents get up and leave when we sat down at the table. But that's another story for another day.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

romanigypsyeyes wrote:

I am going to throw in a story about the Greek culture being white dominated. I am not involved in Greek life in any way, shape, or form. I think it's dumb and I don't understand why people waste money on it. I do not know if this story is typical or a one-time deal, but I do know that it's true.

My roommate last year (we were both freshmen) decided to go out for a sorority. She made it into one and spent all of her time with it freshmen year. Her sorority is all white, but neither of us ever thought anything of it since most Greek orgs on campus are all or mostly white.

This year, I met with her for lunch after rush week. I noticed that she wasn't wearing any of her sorority stuff- which was HIGHLY unusual, especially for her not to have her sorority bag. I asked her what was up and she told me that she left her sorority. Apparently, during rush week, they would take a picture of every girl who came to apply to get in to the sorority (not sure of the proper terminology so "apply" works). They claimed it was to attach a face to the application. However, when the sor was going through the applications, they began by going through the photos. Basically, they were getting rid of the "ugly" candidates. Who did the "ugly" candidates consist of? Every single person of color that applied, as well as a few white girls.

This pissed my old roommate off so much that she promptly quit the sorority. Didn't even ask for her fees or anything back, just up and left. Now, I do not know if this is typical. This is the ONLY sorority I know anything about. My only other friend who is in a sorority (she is black) is in a multi-cultural sorority. However, if this is like this even in ONE sorority, then there is probably a legitimate reason for multicultural, all-black, all-hispanic/latino, all-asian, etc sororities/fraternities as it would appear that at least some Greek orgs are indeed de facto all-white orgs.

And honestly- my whole response to this thread is- who cares? Live and let live. People want to have all black orgs? Have 'em. All white? Have 'em.

Most Greek organizations are indeed de facto "white students clubs". If they suddenly became majority-minority, it would defeat the purpose — either explicit or implicit — of their organization.

pima · Guru

I think for my FIL one of the proudest moments in his life (minus the children) was when his FIL acknowledge to him that he was wrong and his opinion was based on prejudice.

Remember back in the 50's inter-faith marriages were frowned upon,

My FIL is the greatest father in the world and I love him to the very fiber of my being. My Mom said to me before Bullet proposed look at the father because that is who he will become. I did, and I am proud to say I have no regrets.

Off topic, but still in a way on topic. Your children will become a reflection of you. If you want them to continue this path you are on, than they will. If you want the world to change than it starts with you.

I am not flawless. I know that, but my goal when it came to raising our children was to make sure they never saw the color of anyone's skin.

Like I said, when they were 4-5 yrs old, we refused to allow color of the skin as a descriptor. We raised them to see people for people.

It is disheartening to hear that because we are white, others feel the need to escape me because I am white and they assume I place my skin color above human kindness/respect.

Flip side, I am sure there are reasons why they feel this way due to ignorance and arrogance. HOWEVER, I would say the only way to fight that is to inform people, walking away allows that idea to continue.

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

Unfortunately everyone isn't so enlightened as you pima. Hatred and bigotry die hard. Sad to say I have some relatives that, in private, make no bones that they don't like blacks and think that they pull the country down. They seem to feel the same way about most liberals too but that's obviously nothing to do with race...lol

I have my own set of bigotry I deal with. I can't stand stupidity from any group, white, black or otherwise. I can't stand whining about not getting a fair break regardless of who it is. I haven't had anything laid at my feet so quit your bitchin'. :) I did a good job of passing the stupidity bigotry on to my kids. They abhor stupidity as much as I do....

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

1. My MIL is jewish my FIL is Catholic they were married in 1958. Her father tore his coat sleeve off as she drove away. In the Jewish world that means you are dead to me.
~ When her father was dieing he acknowledge that my FIL was the best SIL he could have wanted.

I'm glad your FIL got that closure. My grandparents (a gypsy and a gadje) never had the acceptance of either side of the family. All parties went to their graves without closure :/.

pima · Guru

I may be narrow-minded and lazy, but why is it I have to make the effort to reach out? Do you make the effort to reach out? Will you meet me halfway? If I have to constantly do all the work, I get tired. How often should I have tea with you before I am not considered narrow-minded and lazy? Or am I allowed to be in my all-black groups since I belong to these other mostly white organizations? I don't understand.

I don't think you have to be the one to always make the effort.

However, if you are 2 things come to mind:

1. You need a new circle of friends, because they do not genuinely care about you.

2. You need a new circle of friends, because you are hanging out with bigots.

There are times in our lives when we realize that we can't change people. You can walk away because your head hurts from banging it against a wall. You can also stay and say the only way that my kid doesn't have to endure the banging is if I do it.

Your choice, and I respect that choice.

I am a woman, and I would say I get it from a woman's perspective...replace black with female. However, I also know that the only way Bullet gets me is if we "talk it out".

Ignorance can occur because of silence.

You do no good for the future generations if you don't keep up the fight to break down these barriers.

Trust me, I know that in multiple ways!

1. My MIL is jewish my FIL is Catholic they were married in 1958. Her father tore his coat sleeve off as she drove away. In the Jewish world that means you are dead to me.
~ When her father was dieing he acknowledge that my FIL was the best SIL he could have wanted.

2. My In laws felt I came from the wrong side of the tracks. I lived with their PITY for yrs...Bullet and I dated for 5 1/2 yrs before marriage. We are the only 1 left married out of the 3 of them.

3. Our DD dated an AA @ 4 yrs ago. I had absolutely no problem with it. He treated her well, and that was all that mattered. His parents OTOH had issues with him dating a white girl.

4. Our DS's best friend is black. He basically lived 1 night a week every week for 2 yrs at my home. He is the sweetest soul ever created. I am proud my son has him in his life. Our DS is almost 21, this friendship is 5 yrs strong, and I am sure when our DS gets married he will be the best man.

We love this kid because what he means to our son. He could move in tomorrow into our home as our own child. However, in those 5 yrs, his parents would never allow our white son to enter their home.

That is sad. They don't even know my child, yet, I can tell them that their DS like Orange Soda, and what toppings he likes on his pizza.

The point is you can use race as an excuse to defend why you prefer this option, but what are you actually doing when you elect to retreat? Are you breaking down the barriers or are you putting more barriers up?

I will keep fighting people who don't understand that race is a genetic marker. I will be just as proud of my SIL or DIL regardless of race, because I refuse to make race a factor.

I refuse to allow it.

I am Catholic, but my MIL is jewish, I have a menorah in my home. I have a mezuzah on my door. I want my kids to grasp that. I want them to get the big picture. I want them to acknowledge every part of their ancestry. I want them to not only acknowledge and embrace, but fight for equality.

No offense, but it appears your defense is "It's easier". Again it may be easier for you, but what about your kids? Shouldn't we as parents plow the road for them?

-- Edited by pima on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 10:37:03 AM

Woodwork · Senior Member

I'm sometimes narrow-minded and lazy and too often consider myself the measure of man. Although I always admire those that rise above themselves and do the extra work.

As to racial integration: I got that one completely covered.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

I am going to throw in a story about the Greek culture being white dominated. I am not involved in Greek life in any way, shape, or form. I think it's dumb and I don't understand why people waste money on it. I do not know if this story is typical or a one-time deal, but I do know that it's true.

My roommate last year (we were both freshmen) decided to go out for a sorority. She made it into one and spent all of her time with it freshmen year. Her sorority is all white, but neither of us ever thought anything of it since most Greek orgs on campus are all or mostly white.

This year, I met with her for lunch after rush week. I noticed that she wasn't wearing any of her sorority stuff- which was HIGHLY unusual, especially for her not to have her sorority bag. I asked her what was up and she told me that she left her sorority. Apparently, during rush week, they would take a picture of every girl who came to apply to get in to the sorority (not sure of the proper terminology so "apply" works). They claimed it was to attach a face to the application. However, when the sor was going through the applications, they began by going through the photos. Basically, they were getting rid of the "ugly" candidates. Who did the "ugly" candidates consist of? Every single person of color that applied, as well as a few white girls.

This pissed my old roommate off so much that she promptly quit the sorority. Didn't even ask for her fees or anything back, just up and left. Now, I do not know if this is typical. This is the ONLY sorority I know anything about. My only other friend who is in a sorority (she is black) is in a multi-cultural sorority. However, if this is like this even in ONE sorority, then there is probably a legitimate reason for multicultural, all-black, all-hispanic/latino, all-asian, etc sororities/fraternities as it would appear that at least some Greek orgs are indeed de facto all-white orgs.

And honestly- my whole response to this thread is- who cares? Live and let live. People want to have all black orgs? Have 'em. All white? Have 'em.

Silvermoonlock · Veteran Member

I must state that I somehow maintain a mental block when it comes to quoting on message boards. I am the same way with fax machines. I have no shame.

Pima, I do not expect anyone to read my mind and I thank you for understanding my point of view. My husband taught me that lesson about not being able to read minds biggrin

.

I am not clear if we ever will get past racial discrimination. I think the best that can be hoped for will be tolerance. Maybe tolerance will be the bridge.

So many points to make. I self segregate in many ways. I am a gamer. Two of my closest friends I met online, 2 middle aged white ladies. Love them to death. We travel around the country to meet each other. I belong to a womens golf league. 60 members, 3 black. We have a great time. I've been in all female bowling leagues, mixed gender leagues, all Black leagues and mostly white leagues.

My staff--we do learn from each other. The Indians have schooled us on the caste system and how it is in play at the workplace. The hispanics got me going to some great restaurants and grocery stores and cooking authentic Mexican food. I have golfed with some of my staff from years ago. My hispanic guy lamented the fact that when he was at Cornel, there were few hispanics for him to hang out with. He had to go down the hill to find the hispanic neighborhood. He, too, was tired of the whiteness. He just needed a break and wanted to enjoy the company of other hispanics. It really isn't something we dwell on, it's just a fact of life and we move on.

I may be narrow-minded and lazy, but why is it I have to make the effort to reach out? Do you make the effort to reach out? Will you meet me halfway? If I have to constantly do all the work, I get tired. How often should I have tea with you before I am not considered narrow-minded and lazy? Or am I allowed to be in my all-black groups since I belong to these other mostly white organizations? I don't understand.

BTW, Black Sororities and fraternities do fight against injustice, neglect and discrimination, illiteracy, hunger, teen pregancy, early childhood intervention and many other social issues.

Woodwork · Senior Member

In fact, I took the question to be, is it inherently racist for there to be a white-student union. which I believe suggests that the university itself would be advancing the institution of a white student union, as is the case with a black student union.

In either case, the Universities should have no business in endorsing or instituting racial student unions.

If, on the other hand, blacks or whites prefer to drink tea with each other without the inconvenience of conversing with people of different races, for reasons of their own choosing, that should be their decision entirely...as it is, naturally. I still think it is narrow-minded and lazy, but it is their choice nonetheless, and many are lazy on frequent occasion for numerous reasons.

The institutions themselves, otoh, should not be involved in this form of social and racial discrimination. Not even if they think that it advances their idea of a righteous cause. Sounds too like religion to me.

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

Neglect from the white-dominated Greek scene? For sure.

The desire to hang out with people you have the most in common with, shared experiences, etc... But wait, it always has to be the evil white guy...I forgot.

pima · Guru

Silvermoon.

I get your point regarding whiteness, and I am white.

However, how do we ever get passed racial discrimination if the only people you discuss this with are people who feel the same.

How many times have you heard the old cliche "Did you expect me to be a mind reader?"

If you don't say the white groups that you feel there is a whiteness, than nothing can change.

By joining an all "race" group, you are preaching to the choir. They all have the same opinion and nothing will change.

Maybe if you were upfront with your opinions, not generalizations, you would make an impact on how white people have affronted you in specific ways.

You state that you would not socialize with them outside of work, regarding this diverse group. Was it because of age or personality, or was it because you prefer to only socialize in a specific circle?

I really mean this with genuine emotion. You can't change the world if you remain silent.

I am an MSNBC viewer, but I have to say CNN in the media world is trying their best to change the image. Soledad O'Brien has done many shows regarding Hispanic and Black cultures.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

soccerguy315 wrote:

nbachris2788 wrote:

I'd love to hear your rationales for organizing a race-based organization that's not dedicated to fighting injustice, neglect, or discrimination.

What are black frats/sororities organized for? Are they fighting injustice, neglect, and discrimination?

Neglect from the white-dominated Greek scene? For sure.