Political & Elections

pima · Guru

Schools are failing black males

pima · Guru

BigG, I was not speaking of ADD children, I am speaking of kids who have no desire to go to school because they have already found their niche, with things like taking apart a car engine or cutting someone's hair. They have already plotted out their life goal and it isn't at that time attending college as an undecided major.

Our DS has Aspergers, and I am very well aware of how athletics has been an asset in his life. He is our only child with this issue. He has been in sports since he was 3. He has been on the 1st string JV FB team since he was a sophomore, and played second string Varsity as a Jr. I am sure he will be 1st string next yr. He never played football one day in his life until his sophomore yr.

The doing fitness is not a factor for him and maintaining his grades. The fact that if he gets a C he is off the team has been the motivator. Additionally, if you understand Asperger's you will know it is commonly referred to as social ADD. They need to learn how to interact socially. They don't have the inherent ability to understand personal space, or when a comment is inappropriate.

I am assuming since both articles are on ADHD this has a personal impact in your life. PT may have an impact for this disorder. I know for a friend whose DD was ADHDAD, being on a team actually also did great things for her. When she wasn't in track or soccer, her grades plummeted and her attitude, even with the patch was out the door insane. She was jeckyll or hyde depending on if she was in sports.

That being stated, school can only take a blanket approach. We try to create subsections, but with budget constraints and govt requirements, it becomes very difficult. PE for ADD students may be a great option, however, with No Child Left Behind, and the ever increasing demand for courses like AP/IB for college, we have less and less opportunity for PE, Art and Music.

Again, this is a school issue from a govt and union standpoint. In AK, KS, VA, PE is required throughout hs. In their elementary yrs kids must have not only PE 2 X a week, but also recess of 30 minutes daily. In NC, you are only required 1 yr of PE, plus in elementary PE is only required 2X a week and recess is left to the discretion of the teacher.

BTW in those states, they also require that the child take Music or Art until their 10th grade. In NC after 8th grade they are clear to go.

The interesting fact is everyone talks about teaching the test as the reason to get rid of PE, Music, and Art, but nobody realizes high scoring states have had no problem integrating this. They traditionally score higher than NC, who opted to get rid of these programs. Than again, they took an interesting approach by having the elective teachers teach on a dual path. For example, when I taught long term 3rd grade in KS, the art teacher, librarian, music teacher would follow my plan to their choice. If I was teaching about the Civil War, the Art teacher would have their art project be that time frame for her lesson. If I was teaching geometry, the PE teacher had them learn 4 squares and how angling the ball impacted the game. If I was teaching Haikus, the librarian would read poetry.

You can actually teach the test, without losing teachers. You need the union and the state to get the heck out of the way!

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Here in PA we don't have EOG. Kids are promoted according to each school districts criteria. I suspect this kid failed many courses in middle/high school and stayed in school for gang recruitment purposes.

IMO - 16 yr olds do not belong in middle school and 20 yr olds do not belong in high school. They should be sent to an alternative school away from their peers who are not really their peers.

BigG · Guru

pima,
I was refering more to basic training.

pima · Guru

JAM,

You can become a 20 yr old jr because of No Child Left Behind. In NC, if you fail the EOG in 3,5,8 and 10th you lose the parental right to promote them and the child MUST remain in that grade.

When our DS was in 4th grade, there was a girl who failed her 3rd grade EOG, so she was now 11 in 4th instead of 10. She was promoted to 5th because of parental rights. Failed 5th because of the EOG, that meant she would stay behind and graduate 5th at 13. She was 16 in 8th grade, but again failed that EOG so she was now 18 as a freshman. That made her 20 as a jr.

It happens, it just all depends on the state and parental rights regarding promotion.

Again, the school system failed her because we do not want to acknowledge how or why they are falling through the cracks. Why did this girl fail? It was the parents, the parents were immigrants and could not speak an ounce of English, even though they had lived here for over a decade. Hard to help your child with English if you use the child as an interpreter. Nobody can tell me that the parents couldn't have learned English if they wanted to, but instead it was easier for them to treat their child like an adult.

The saddest day in my life as an educator was when she told me her parents were so proud of her for making it to 4th grade. The second saddest time was, that I had to keep sending her home everyday from school because she had lice, and the parents did not realize that this was a health issue. It happened for 10 days...and yes, we sent even the lice medication home with her and directions in Spanish. It got to the point that we did it at school with the nurse every a.m. and then the VP would drive her home, telling Mom in Spanish, you need to do this.

-- Edited by pima on Friday 3rd of December 2010 07:03:33 AM

pima · Guru

You are correct, in the UK their "SAT" is given at 16. You have 1 shot to get it right, none of this super scoring or take test A over B. Once those results are out, than you know if you are even ELIGIBLE to apply for college.

By doing this system, that means you have 2 yrs to figure out where your life is going. You already know it is over for college if you don't pass the boards.

I would not want to raise my kids in Asia, because I think it is emotionally detrimental to place this stress starting at a very young age. I have seen many reports where kids literally go to school 6 days a week. Parents start preparing them for college write after they can spell their name. There is no childhood for them.

I am not saying we should not have PE, I am saying that the military is not successful in training military members when dealing with setting the coordinates for a missile or sonar because of PE. They are successful because the military member found something they want to be involved with. The Marines and the Army are very big on PT, but to the AF and Navy as an AD member they could care less. Pass your yrly PT test, and you are good to go. 20 yrs in Bullet's career and the only PT he did outside of his tours with the Army, was playing golf and lifting a beer after the round of golf. This is true for enlisted members too.

Physical training has nothing to do with success in the military for the majority of AD military members...again Caveat, Marines and Army. Trust me park your car at the Pentagon at 4 in the afternoon, and you will see military members coming out, while you say to yourself how is it they aren't on the big boy program?

FWIW, I was married to Bullet for 4 yrs before he ever had mandated PT. He did that for 2 yrs (jumped with the 82nd AB), and never again for the next 14 yrs. I mean never. If he wanted to run because his pants were getting snug, it was his choice, all he had to do was pass the yrly PT and BMI. Even then they would tape him if it was an issue. Our DS is in AFROTC, he does not have mandated daily PT. Actually, because he is so fit, he has been able to opt out and not attend...unfortunately for him, the det job he has is the PT instructor, so he has to lead it 1x a week.

-- Edited by pima on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:44:03 AM

-- Edited by pima on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:47:53 AM

-- Edited by pima on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:48:41 AM

BigG · Guru

pima,

You are recommending the exclusion of less capable students from the "academic track" that characterizes education in other G8 nations.

This goes against the "anybody can do anything" paradigm of American education.

In order to accomodate a few "late bloomers", we do a poor job for everybody else.

In most of the world, "bomb your boards"="off the academic track". This is a powerful and effective motivator. Students in other countries have no doubt their position in society is determined by how well they do in school.

I disagree with you absolutely, completely, and totally regarding physical training. Our deficiency in this area is even more glaring than our academic deficiencies with respect to other countries. Everybody needs exercise. Boys need it more than girls to sit still and learn in the classroom.

Ancedotal? Yes. But clearly an indication;
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/3280.html
Also;
http://www.oneaddplace.com/the_effects_of_excercise_on_ADD_ADHD.php
-- Edited by BigG on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:35:21 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:35:58 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:39:24 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:42:57 AM

BigG · Guru

justamonof4,

You fail a bunch of grades.

Why do you think power sports like football have the "dumb jock" image? They are dominated by older, more physically mature athletes who failed a grade or three.
It is not the case that dumber is more athletically talented. It is the case that older competitors exclude younger, less mature ones denying them the opportunity to develop. Sports are "zero sum games". For one competitor to be a "starter", someone else has to sit on the bench.

Why do girl athletes fair better academically? Female puberty and maturity hits earlier and there is less advantage to older athletes in high school who failed a few grades.

Young men throw a 12 lb shot in high school and a 16 lb. in college.
Women throw an 8.8 lb shot in HS and college.

Read "Outliers". Part of this book deals with the relationship between birthdate and athletic excellence. Canadian hockey is dominated by people who are born just after the cutoff date for inclusion in an age group. If a few months makes this much defference, how much advantage does 2 or 3 years confer?

-- Edited by BigG on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:24:47 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:25:51 AM

pima · Guru

Physical training is not the issue, it is finding what the student truly loves. If you look at most school systems we are missing an opportunity in filling a void.

In my hometown, where Bullet and I were raised, we had a VOTECH school, where kids were eligible to apply for as a freshman. The school was created as a dual path school. They would still get the hs requirements, but all of their electives were the path to getting into their career field. They had cosmetology, hair, plumbing, electrician, automotive, landscape, restaurant and bakery. The student would not only graduate with their diploma, but the state certification needed for the desire career field.

The town supported this because they were happy to pay guinea pig prices to get their hair or nails done, or buy their Xmas tree from them. The school ran as a NPF, thus, the price you paid was to cover the supplies. This also meant taxpayers weren't paying any extra money to cover the costs. Additionally, it also meant that the traditional schools had higher scoring students and that meant the town was desirable from a real estate standpoint = pushing up housing prices.

Many kids who go enlisted in the military have a desired career field. One where the traditional school system cannot handle.

We try to pigeon hole kids into certain fields, but we don't acknowledge, that if we re-zoned one traditional hs into a votech, we could actually help them more from a position of being productive in society at a younger age. That is what the military does, they allow the military member different paths to their lives.

An 18 yo who can enter immediately into a hair salon because for 4 yrs of experience and instruction, can start their life faster than the 18 yo who did not have this opportunity, but was forced to get a traditional HS degree and now work part time while attending school for her career, which isn't cheap. Even then, they do not have the experience, so it takes them yrs to climb up the ladder.

The trick is to get kids to WANT to go to school. A Vo-Tech would be the perfect option.

-- Edited by pima on Friday 3rd of December 2010 06:15:56 AM

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Barrier to Graduation: Murder

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

RE: Schools are failing black males

BigG · Guru

And yet the military can take young men and train them to use incredibly complex modern weapon systems...

Perhaps starting the day with an hour of physical training would serve the civilian school system well. Most physical activity seems to come late in the day or after school.

I don't have any data but I bet US schools lag the other developed countries in time spent on PT in schools.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Recently, my daughter got her first set of standardized testing scores for college. I was pretty amazed at the differences from her and her brothers. I was a stay at home mom with my boys until the oldest was in 6th grade. I worked when my daughter started in kinder - but always with flex hours. I am not sure what was done differently at home from child 1 to child 3. All of the kids have late birthdays, so we can't attribute it to that. In fact the D has one of the latest birthdays in her graduating class.

I volunteered in classrooms and helped with homework. When things got too difficult, we hired tutors.

And yet, my D's scores are consistently higher across the board than her brothers on her first try, well in advance of where her brothers took this test. Is it because she is a girl or just does better on tests than her brothers? She has always cared more about school. Why? Better DNA? More organized study habits? Better teachers? Honestly, we have stayed in the same school district with all three kids, they had the same teachers for many years and subjects and had the same homework/academic success expectations.

All my kids have always done well in school, but I do think girls succeed at the school "game" earlier than boys do. Perhaps those early successes impact our girls during their school career.

It's not uncommon for the top 10% of students in our local school to be made up of mostly young women.

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

I have to agree with Winchester. Our local administrators will you in the face and tell you that they can't do this or that because the state or federal regs have their hands tied and that unfortunately as long as the mandated tests are being passed that's all the really matters. It's not that they don't care. I live in a small enough district that I know these people and their families and they know us. They feel our pain. I can only imagine how tough it must be in districts so large that it's impersonal.

justamom - I didn't realize my son was high risk, just high maintenance. I can see where he would have either given up, dropped out or become an undesirable if we had not stayed involved and set the expectations. He hasn't always liked us but we don't really care. Get that Bachelor's degree and move on...

-- Edited by pmrlcomm on Thursday 2nd of December 2010 01:30:40 PM

winchester · Guru

Tom1944 I completely agree about parents. I'm not saying that parents don't have a responsibility. Of course they do. I think the bulk of the learning in any class at any level comes from the homework. Learning to do math, for example, is not very different from learning to play an instrument in the sense that the sessions with the teacher provide guidance and introduce new topics, but the real skill is developed by the daily repetition on one's own. This is true whether it's for algebra or for piano. And it's largely the parents who ensure that that happens.

But as far as "the system" goes, I think there's too much of it.

We try so hard to forcibly make things right by mandate from above that we end up pushing aside and preventing exactly the kind of creativity and personal attention that our kids need the most. A neighbor of mine was a teacher but moved to a non-teaching job within the school system for exactly this reason. She spent more time working for the system than she did for the kids.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

winchester- the system will always have problems catering to individual needs that is why adult involvement is so important until the child can navigate the system on their own. In many instances we now call them helicopter parents but that is the extreme. The parents that are involved in the right way do give their children a distinct advantage in many if not most instances.

winchester · Guru

Having just read this thread from the beginning, and taking a step back to see the larger picture that all of the stories here contribute to, it seems to me that teachers and parents need less "help" from national and even state institutions like government and unions and more leeway to do what they know to be right for each kid.

I don't mean to knock government or unions per se, it just seems that insitutional "one size fits all" rules or systems or guidlines - no matter the insititution they originate from - in reality end up being a perfect "fit" for almost nobody, and more of a hindrence than a help to the child and the first line of adults (the teacher(s) and the parents) who are trying to help him or her.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

I believe anyone looking at this honestly can see that their is a wide discrepancy between the success of females academically in comparison to boys. To think it is not a problem now and an even bigger issue coming is foolish.

zoosermom · Senior Member

It's not liberal hooey. This is one of the most serious problems facing our country. It's just not sexy enough to get the attention it deserves. There's also a boat load of blame to be spread all around the political spectrum, so it's not even a good political weapon for any particular side. When you think of all the things those boys don't do, the things they don't invent, the wealth they don't generate, it's a national disaster.

I just finished reading "The Warmth of Other Suns" which is about the great migration up from the south in the 20th century. It touches on this issue a bit and the socio-economic issues even more. I highly recommend that book for anyone who wants a magnificently written way of passing a little time. And learning something.

-- Edited by zoosermom on Thursday 2nd of December 2010 07:43:25 AM

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

pmrlcomm - your son was high risk. The dropout rate for gifted kids - especially boys is alarming. This is true even in affluent and succeeding school districts.

zoosermom - I agree - we are failing boys. It is especially prevalant with black boys. One reason being culture and the absense of fathers and father figures.

It is racial in the sense of socio-economic, culture and geography. That is not the same as saying our educational system is racist.

My point was that in simply dismissing this as a bunch of liberal hooey - we are not recognizing the truth and looking at solutions. NIMBY as pima noted.

-- Edited by justamomof4 on Thursday 2nd of December 2010 07:35:26 AM

zoosermom · Senior Member

This is not a racial issue. There are very clear statistics that black girls are succeeding and even middle class black boys are not. It's just the boys. Black boys have it tougher statistically because they are less likely to have fathers in the home, but our education system is failing boys. It's just failing black boys more spectacularly.

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

pima - I do agree it is socio-economic and you points are well made. We live in a very well-to-do area and the school is continually rated as a top 10 in the state for Public schools. We struggle to keep up with the property taxes that fuel that school but you have to make those sacrifices. My point was that even with all that going for us our DS would have been left out in the cold by the schools. He was bright but underachieving and they have no resources to deal with those kids. If he had an "accepted" LD rather then his ****tail of LD-related issues he would have received resources out the wazoo. It's because we made it a priority to not let him fall through the cracks. No kudos to us, it's what you're supposed to do. My wife and I both work full-time and I pick up side jobs and she picks up extra hours when she can. It's not easy but I don't blame the schools. Ultimately the children are the parents responsibility.

zoosermom · Senior Member

I have very mixed feelings about this. My son comes from an affluent, intact household that values education very highly. He has every advantage most kids have and two that most don't: extremely successful much-older sisters who give him an astounding amount of attention. D1 is finishing her degree in history this year with certification to teach his grade level in the same school system, so the boy is practically hooked! But he's still a mess. In terms of the school system, yes, there are socio-economic elements. Absolutely. But the hard, ugly truth is that at the socio-economic bottom if we as a society are not willing to take the kids out of the home, we will never be able to educate them and it's ludicrous to pretend otherwise. God-willing, we can feed and immunize those kids and keep them safe, but there's no time left after that for education.

But having done this twice with girls and now with a boy, there is no question in my mind but that there is a gender issue as well. How can there not be when so many teachers are female? We all know that girls mature at a different pace than boys, even reach puberty earlier, so that should be accommodated in school. My personal belief is that there shouldn't be a set-in-stone date for kids to start school. There should be a range of normal based on academic and social readiness. If that meant that boys in a particular class were older than the girls, then fine. I'm really grappling with this issue right now. My son is the most loving boy. Even at 12 and taller than me he holds my hand to get ME safely across the street. He plays three instruments well and is remarkably considerate of others. He is, however, a mess in ways that are quantified in school. He gets some of the best grades on tests in all his classes, does very well on standardized tests, understands the material and can often help other kids. But he simply can not get the handwriting/notebook thing right. And you know what? I am getting really angry that he has to. Why should someone else's designation of how he should take notes and internalize information be used to make up 20% of his grade? When left to his own devices, he doesn't take the notes the teacher wants, but he listens to what is said, processes it, remembers it and then can use it appropriately afterward. But when he has to sit there and copy the notes neatly, he no longer listens or really takes in the information because that's not the way he learns. So who benefits? Not him. Not the teacher who is now his adversary. But, really, why does this **** matter? I can't tell you how much this cost him point-wise on his report card and this picky crap is all over schools in various ways. It's also a big factor in high school admissions. Not every kid colors well inside the lines, and a lot of that subset is made up of people with penises. Many boys don't work that way and they are then tuned out and lost at the middle school level. That's not ok. We need to work better to make learning less punitive for boys. Many (not all) girls are happy to have neat notebooks. It works for the. It worked for me. My girls were color-coded from elementary school and that works for them. But my son is being lost because of this stupid ****.

Ok. Rant over.

pima · Guru

I have worked in the school system for yrs prior to burning out. JAM is correct, but I also have to disagree with her to a point.

Education is a socio-economic issue. The inner city schools traditionally are low income where parents are working two jobs to keep a roof over their head. That means they really have little time to assist and partake in their child's education.

Go to the suburbs and you will find many parents volunteering in the school. They fiscally have it better off and that means their children have more options. If they are having problems they can afford to enroll them in Sylvan or a private school that is not the option for the low income families.

Additionally, the way most school systems work is for teachers their form of promotion is moving up to the better school, which means the teachers are impacting their education too. This is compiled on when you understand how No Child Left Behind operates. If the school is failing when it comes to state testing for 3 consecutive yrs the BOE will come in and clean house, because that is the loop hole prior to the charter issue. Teachers they want to keep are transferred out to keep their job safe, teachers they don't want or left in place (2nd loophole because tenure is a non-player). The problem here is that you have constantly changing staff and that causes disruption. New principals are going to bring their ideas and implement them. Do that every 2 yrs and there is no consistency regarding education.

This is not an easy issue because even at the end of the day, what you also have is the voting block who have a fiscal aspect in this fight. People buy homes for the school, when the BOE comes in and tries to re-district school lines, parents go nuts, because they know if their house is rezoned to a lower quality school, than their property price will drop. They are not about to let that happen to them. It is and always was the issue Not In My Backyard. It is a protective position of why we continue to see these disparities.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

One thing my D is learning at college and as she begins to understand some of the family dynamics her friends from home face is that not everyone starts from the same place in life and that often the road for others is not as smooth as the road she has been able to travel.
That said the real shame is that without proper guidance these young people create obstacles for themselves that in many instances will hinder them for their entire life. I do not think there is any way society can fix that- it needs to be fixed in a micro manner not macro. One family or one person at a time. I would advocate for mentoring not money as a solution.

justamomof4 · Veteran Member

Why does everything have to be "partisan"? To me this is just an excuse to either validate or invalidate something.

If you have two groups of students and one repeatedly succeeds and the other repeatedly fails - then you need to make adjustments to help the failing group to succeed.
To offer up soundbites - like 'everyone gets the same instruction (false!!) or parents are to blame is to ignore the issue.

Most black students in America attend a 'segregated' school. I suggest you go to a city and look at the differences between a school is a poor, 'racially diverse' neighborhood and one in a white suburban neighborhood. No comparison.

If you are angered by this report it should be because of the facts - that we, as a society, allow so many black students to fail.

-- Edited by justamomof4 on Thursday 2nd of December 2010 05:37:54 AM

soccerguy315 · Guru

everyone who goes to the same class gets the same instruction... whatever happens outside of class is not the school's responsibility

Abyss · Senior Member

Does this mean that schools are failing white males (ie: outcompeted by Asian males)? There just always seems to be this score differential that just won't go away. No matter what sort of academic contortion is attempted.

-- Edited by Abyss on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 04:19:21 PM

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

http://articles.dailypress.com/2010-10-13/news/dp-nws-squires-column-0930-20101013_1_schott-foundation-white-males-black-males/2

I saw this headline and had to take a look. I am not familiar with The Daily Press so I'll go under the assumption that this is a partisan piece for the sake of argument. As a father of a son who, if we hadn't pushed the schools and been proactive, would have been failed by a rather good school district I would like to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the parent(s) (or lack thereof in a lot of cases) who don't make sure that a quality education is a priority. The schools are there to educate, in theory, not raise people's children for them. I'm sooooo tired of hearing about how the schools should do this and the schools are not doing this right. How about we go back to letting them just educate and see how they do then?