Political & Elections

catahoula · Guru

RE: Why does George Will and Rush Limbaugh hate the Chevy Volt?

Intrepid1 · Veteran Member

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-23/obama-bolsters-u-s-hybrid-auto-sales-in-waning-consumer-market.html

Not a good thing when the main group really purchasing these vehicles is the government.

"President Barack Obama’s administration has bought almost a fourth of the Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Co. hybrid vehicles sold since he took office, accelerating federal purchases as consumer demand wanes. "

"The government is boosting investment in a technology that has failed to win broad acceptance after more than a decade in the marketplace. Consumer sales of hybrids are headed for their third consecutive yearly decline. Government agencies and businesses have said they also will purchase all-electric models being introduced by automakers including GM."

Investment? Don't think that is the word I would use. As pmrlcomm notes "The ROI on a Volt sucks out loud.", although most cars are in general are not a great investment vehicle (no pun intended).

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

Regardless of what pundits from either side think you can only afford to be "green" if you have enough money to not care about your return on investment. The ROI on a Volt sucks out loud. It's the same math that caused me to not buy a hybrid several years ago. The same vehicle (Mercury Mariner I believe hybrid vs gas) several years ago would have cost me about $6k more in hybrid. After doing the math I figured I would have to drive that thing into the ground and gas would have to be $5 a gallon for 5 years for me to recoup my money. If you really only want a car for tooling around the immediate area and that is cost effective purchase an electric street legal golf cart. Otherwise you need to have enough money not to care how much you spend... I'm sure Leonardo will own a volt, if he can choke down buying something American made.

-- Edited by pmrlcomm on Thursday 25th of November 2010 05:45:58 AM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

Cartera wrote:

But people like Will and Limbaugh influence the market. Making it a political issue influences the market. Driving a Prius is political to many. I have a close relative who is very conservative and really wanted a Prius. He drove mine and loved it but he said he could never buy one because he mentioned his interest to his conservative friends and they called him a traitor.

That is positively moronic. One of the stupidest, but not surprising, things I've ever heard.

For people like that, the genesis of their "political" beliefs probably boils down to something personal and petty like, "Those liberals think they're better than me? Well I'll show them! I'll be against everything they're for! Hmph!"

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

The US government didn't have to subsidize the hell out of Toyota and Honda to develop their hybrid cars in the research and development phase.

I apologize for misreading you, razorsharp. I absolutely thought you were yanking our collective chain.

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

Don't discount the influence of El Rushbo. Traditional ruling elites have "fumbled the ball" leaving the field open to less educated demagogues. More people listen to him and "listen to him" than ANY other single media personality.

The Chevy Volt is hated because it is a challenge to "the way things are". If electric cars became prevalent, Big Oil would lose profits.

We would then have no reason to be involved in the Middle East other than supporting Israel. A few nukes would serve that purpose well.

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 03:26:47 AM

Talk about getting the cause and effect wrong.

Electric cars *will* become prevalent when Big Oil makes a bunch of profit (indicating a high cost of oil). Until that point electric cars simply won't be bought in large numbers because oil, as a transportation fuel, is far better than batteries.

That's, like, science.

-- Edited by Abyss on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 03:27:39 PM

Cardinal Fang · Senior Member

And it's not environmentally friendly for one person to own two vehicles, one for commuting and one for everything else.

But it could be environmentally friendly for one FAMILY to own two vehicles. If two adults have moderate commutes, then they could have a Volt and another car. Whenever they needed to go a long way, they'd use the other car, but for daily use, one would drive the Volt and the other another car.

We do this in my family. Except instead of a standard car and a Volt, we have a standard car and bikes.

Razorsharp · Guru

my tongue remains ready for the next meal. the real problem facing algae ethanol is not the environmental consequences because those can be addressed. the real problem is the cost to produce it. In small labs, it is not hard to make, but it remains very expensive. Only if they can produce it in a very large-scale can they bring the cost down to make a market for it. If scientists can ever figure out how to make algae ethanol on a large-scale, the supply would be endless. There would be no need for fossil fuels. That is a world I would love to live in.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Did you very nearly bite off your tongue on that post, Razorsharp?

http://www.greenbang.com/corn-ethanol-curse-strikes-again-algae-fuels-have-large-footprint_13325.html

hayden · Senior Member

Ditto what razorsharp said.

[ SLS - It would be cool if we had a way of rec'ing others' posts, the way some other blogs do. Is that possible? ]

Razorsharp · Guru

the only thing I love more than Rush Limbaugh and George Will is the Chevy volt. I think they're wrong to criticize it. It represents a paradigm shift. New technology always costs a lot more than old technology. If the government has to subsidize the volt in order to build this new market in automobiles, so be it. The Chevy volt represents a significant step towards energy independence. Once the Chevy volt becomes commonplace, economies of scale will kick in and the cost will come down dramatically. De-funding terrorist nations like Iran should be a top priority. the Chevy Volt should help with our national security.

Many people are also criticizing corn-based ethanol. Their criticisms are misplaced. Corn-based ethanol represents the first generation of ethanol. Once the market for ethanol is established, other sources will develop. In particular, algae-based ethanol could be a tremendous success once people figure out how to make scalable production. If there was no market for ethanol, the next generation of ethanol would have no chance of success.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I don't understand how a grown man would decide NOT to buy a car because of what other people think. That's illogical.

Being frustrated that George Will or Rush Limbaugh may impact consumer acceptance of these vehicles doesn't make good sense, either. I don't look to either when making any other buying decisions. Why would anyone think that they sway my choice of vehicle?

I live in a conservative town in a blue state and there are just as many families I know that have Priuses as SUVs or minivans. The kind of car they drive is not dependent upon their politics, but on their families needs. What can they afford? What are their driving requirements? Do they have to haul many kids and cargo? Do they commute long or short distances? How much is it going to cost to insure and maintain? Will my regular mechanic be able to service my car, or do I have to find a specialist? (like Volvos and VW's, for example).

We all want to do what we can to conserve and become less dependent upon oil.

For some, the Volt may be the answer. In my opinion, it just won't be the typical suburban family that buys this car. It won't be the family with teenagers that is looking to buy a car and pay for college. It won't be the mom with little kids to bring around town. They could buy two cars of that style for that price that run on gasoline or a more traditional hybrid model. People will continue to shop their pocketbooks.

Very few families I know would spend $30,000 after the subsidy for this car. I could be wrong.

But it still won't be George Will's fault.

Tatin · In exile

To have the government subsidizing a $40,000 car is basically a giveaway to the wealthy who want to 'feel' green without actually being green.

Cost conscious families would do the math and realize that the Volt is not economical. Buying a regular car and saving over $20,000 buys a lot of gas.

At $3.00 per gallon, that $20,000 buys 6,600 (approx) gallons of gas. At 20mpg. 6,600 gallons of gas will take you 132,000 miles! That's the life of the car!

And I haven't calculated the increased vehicle license fees for a more expensive car and I'm assuming a cash purchase for the Volt, no interest.

CelticClan07 · Senior Member

Why does George Will and Rush Limbaugh hate the Chevy Volt?

My guess, because it's almost as ugly as the cheese wedge, AKA prius.

Tatin- you nailed my thoughts exactly. Where will the batteries go???

"Give me an SUV or give me death!"

Intrepid1 · Veteran Member

"But people like Will and Limbaugh influence the market"

Really? So what and who cares?

What about other media personalities? They don't promote their viewpoints also and attempt to sway people's opinion? Of course they do.

So why does it bother people so much when conservative voices do the same?

Much like CBS/NBC/PBS/MSNBC/ABC/CNN etc. promoted BO for the office of the President. No intended influence over public opinion there? Same principle in action.

Maybe, just maybe that the overarching principle of some liberals is to be against whatever they perceive conservatives to be in favor of?

Tatin · In exile

It is foolish to spend $40,000 on a car that can only go a limited distance.

And it's not environmentally friendly for one person to own two vehicles, one for commuting and one for everything else. Those who think they are saving resources are failing to take into account all the resources and energy used to build that second vehicle. (Not to mention the financial foolishness of buying and insuring a second vehicle). To me, owning one all-purpose vehicle is the 'green' way to go.

(I also read various reports of the problems in manufacturing and disposing of the batteries needed for the electric vehicles.)

Cuse0507 · Veteran Member

It has been rumored that the Volt's battery pack will cost 10 GRAND to replace. Not to mention the relatively limited range that the Volt has on its all-electric setting. It is a good first step, but I think the vehicle is pretty overrated right now.

Personally, I'll stick to my 315 horsepower V-8.

Cartera · Guru

But people like Will and Limbaugh influence the market. Making it a political issue influences the market. Driving a Prius is political to many. I have a close relative who is very conservative and really wanted a Prius. He drove mine and loved it but he said he could never buy one because he mentioned his interest to his conservative friends and they called him a traitor.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I don't think George Will thinks the car, itself, is foolish. I missed where he even said "foolish".

He seems to be of the opinion that the massive subsidies, above and beyond the cost of money spent by our government to help pay for the research and development of this car, paid for by our government is not wise.

The market will take care of itself. The car will succeed or fail due to market demand. Even with subsidies, if people don't purchase the car, it will hurt our government, and ultimately, the taxpayers, who now owns 61% of GM.

We have a massive stake in the success of the Volt.

Why didn't GM take a loss on each car, like Toyota did with the Prius? The Prius was sold for $17,000 when it first came out and Toyota was taking something like a $14,000 loss on EACH vehicle. It hurt their profits, initially. Then they became the big winner in the hybrid game.

GM will look like it's making money with the Volt because of these subsidies - if it sells the car, that is. But it's fuzzy math.

Cartera · Guru

Of course it's partisanship. Why else would George Will attack a car? Since when does he care how people choose to spend their money? Attacking it on that reason is against capitalism. It's fine to attack the subsidy but he could write a column a day attacking subsidies and never run out of material.

I have no idea whether the Volt is a good product or not, but there is an idea there that should be explored. Calling it foolish demonstrates nothing except an agenda.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Cartera,

You believe that the only reason that George Will isn't signing up to buy a Volt is for partisan reasons?

Not due to the enormous cost for the consumer to purchase or the government subsidies that add nearly $10,000 per vehicle on the taxpayer's backs? Simply as a way to stick it to the Democrats?

Most of us would prefer to reduce our consumer consumption and to use the earth's resources wisely.

We also have to use our financial resources wisely, and I predict that the Volt will not be a raging success because of it's price tag. You have to ask yourself - even with the subsidies _ who will be clamoring to buy what accounts to a mid-range, $16,000 American made car?

I have one of those cars and bought it in the midst of the gas crisis. It's not super comfortable, there are some poorly engineered interior styling issues that didn't seem like a huge issue until I actually drove the vehicle off the lot and this car didn't get close to what the fuel mileage ratings were projected. I wouldn't have paid more than double the cost for this vehicle, even if it were were part electric, part gas. Frankly, I wouldn't buy this car again. In terms of safety, it does extremely well. I can also fit into the compact spots with ease.

I hope the Volt proves I am wrong. I really do. Especially since so much taxpayer money went into Volt production and design.

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 10:27:42 AM

BigG · Guru

You know, the money spent on hybrid and electric stuff could be better spent on a sixteen speed, computerized servo shifted transmission. Same benefits re constant RPM, less of a radical departure in technology. Semis already have a manual sixteen speed transmission. They average about 6 MPG but weigh 80,000 lbs, 20 times what a car does.

Cartera · Guru

But the technology is very different from a Prius. It is the transition between hybrid and all electric. Since the majority of drivers drive less than 50 miles a day, it can be all electric for many. For those who don't drive 70 mph on a highway, and most don't on a daily basis, the gasoline used will generate electricity. There are always transitions. Years ago, Americans showed quite a bit of interest in all electric cars but the idea scared the powers that be so badly that they pulled the plug so to speak.

Everyone clamors for ways to cut down on use of foreign oil so why not at least embrace the idea? The only reason for the likes of Will and Limbaugh to completely trash the idea is partisan in my opinion.

Woodwork · Senior Member

In truth, the Volt may be the biggest bust to come up the pike since the Hummer.

That so many people have ruthlessly criticized it --including that other bastion of radio partisanship, NPR-- shows only what an overwrought and unmarketable bust the Volt is... oh, and also that this handwringin guy from the Nation needs to peek over the top of his ideological shades from time to time, just so’s to see what’s going on out here in the real world.

The 'car of the people' cost over 40 GRAND! (NOT INCLUDING SUBSIDIES).

What’s not to like?

-- Edited by Woodwork on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 09:23:04 AM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I haven't read why Limbaugh "hates" the Volt, but the reasons are clear why Will is not a fan of this car. To assign the blame to partisan thinking would be simplistic and wrong for Will. (It might be true for Limbaugh. I don't know. I have no intention of reading his comments. I don't care for his commentary, in general.)

Read the commentary:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/12/AR2010111204494.html

It has to do with limited availability of the car (only available in 6 states), the massive subsidies that are going to be given the buyer of the vehicles that our federal government can ill-afford, and a car for which the price tag will put the vehicle out of the range of what most consumers can afford ($40,000 before subsidies).

GM stressed that this car would be all-electric. There is still some gas-power fueling this vehicle...which makes it a hybrid, like many other vehicles.

I also think Will is looking at the big picture - there are several other automobiles that are hybrids, a combination of electric and gas burning and highly mpg efficient.

This is the first US automaker that is going to be selling a electric, er, hybrid vehicle that is not from a Japanese manufacturer. Yet, the prices on the competition are, well...less. Even the Highlander hybrid lists for less than the Chevy Volt and it seats five, instead of four. My husband and I considered purchasing it, but due to his driving habits, it wouldn't have had the same rate of return for his style of driving; the increased cost made it less possible for us to afford.

Subsidies can be a great incentive for people to change their buying habits. My family purchased a solar system for our house because of it. The subsidies made it a highly attractive purchase. Still, it was expensive and won't "pay out" all it's dividends for years.

If there had not been the subsidies...we wouldn't have bought the system.

When we buy cars or anything, we still have to decide whether or not the cost to own is worth it. There will be many lined up for the Volt. I wish them the best. But even with the subsidies, this car is probably still too expensive for what it offers at this point.

Might as well buy a Prius.

In CA the big reason MANY people bought the Prius or the Honda hybrid cars was about fuel efficiency as well as the ability to ride in the car pool lane on the freeway. Not everyone who has a hybrid has that luxury, but it was a HUGE incentive for folks to lay down the cash for these cars. You should have seen the outrage when hybrid owners couldn't get their carpool stickers because the state gave out "too many" and wouldn't be honoring their commitment to new owners.

People will change their buying and consumption habits, and money clearly talks. Subsidies often do work. The question is whether this particular car - even with the massive government subsidies - is right for the typical car buyer. Would the person thinking of buying this vehicle do better with the Nissan Leaf? Or one of the hybrids already on the market?

Only time and the free market will tell.

(Cross posted with Intrepid.)

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 09:21:54 AM

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 09:24:05 AM

-- Edited by SamuraiLandshark on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 09:25:52 AM

Intrepid1 · Veteran Member

A good idea. What a laugh! When even the ultra-conservative NY Times lambastes the vehicle, you know there are problems.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/opinion/30neidermeyer.html?_r=1

"For starters, G.M.’s vision turned into a car that costs $41,000 before relevant tax breaks ... but after billions of dollars of government loans and grants for the Volt’s development and production. And instead of the sleek coupe of 2007, it looks suspiciously similar to a Toyota Prius. It also requires premium gasoline, seats only four people (the battery runs down the center of the car, preventing a rear bench) and has less head and leg room than the $17,000 Chevrolet Cruze, which is more or less the non-electric version of the Volt.

In short, the Volt appears to be exactly the kind of green-at-all-costs car that some opponents of the bailout feared the government might order G.M. to build."

Just where and how do you think the electricity that is generated to charge this overpriced POS comes from? Solar cells? Not right now. Oh wait, wind power. Don't think so, not at this stage of development.

But, go right ahead and buy one. Let us know what you think. There are certainly much better uses for $41,000 than the Volt.

Cartera · Guru

NBA - you gave the answer. They are against it only because it represents, to them, a possible pairing of liberalism with a good idea. Therefore, it must be quashed. Very simple.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

So... besides just being grouches, why are they against it? Isn't this the free market at work? Consumer wants an electric car, consumer gets an electric car.

Yay Capitalism?

Cartera · Guru

Dolts against Volts

pmrlcomm · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:
Is it true that, as Chris Hayes from "The Nation" put it, that the overarching principle of some conservatives is to be against whatever they perceive liberals to be in favor of?

Be fair. It's it the overarching principle of most liberals to be against whatever they perceive conservatives to be in favor of as well... There is no "one-sided" thing in this two party system. They're more concerned with doing each other in than properly running the country. Neither side has any kind of moral high-ground to stand upon.

BigG · Guru

Don't discount the influence of El Rushbo. Traditional ruling elites have "fumbled the ball" leaving the field open to less educated demagogues. More people listen to him and "listen to him" than ANY other single media personality.

The Chevy Volt is hated because it is a challenge to "the way things are". If electric cars became prevalent, Big Oil would lose profits.

We would then have no reason to be involved in the Middle East other than supporting Israel. A few nukes would serve that purpose well.

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 03:26:47 AM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

I don't see why it's relevant to even care what either person may think of this car.

I would much rather care what the folks at Consumer Reports says about it. Or the NHTSA.

Abyss · Senior Member

More importantly, who actually listens to Rush Limbaugh?

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

I find it quite odd that both the brainy, stuffy wing of the American right-wing (that would be George Will), as well as the obese, uncouth wing of the American right-wing (that would obviously be Rush Limbaugh) are both such haters of the Chevy Volt.

It's one thing to doubt the commercial viability of a new product, but why are they making it so political?

Is it true that, as Chris Hayes from "The Nation" put it, that the overarching principle of some conservatives is to be against whatever they perceive liberals to be in favor of?

-- Edited by nbachris2788 on Tuesday 23rd of November 2010 11:05:08 PM