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Post Info TOPIC: "i don't believe so".


Guru

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Posts: 1124
Date: May 10, 2012
RE: "i don't believe so".
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He seemed like a nice kid, though. blankstare



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Guru

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Posts: 1832
Date: May 10, 2012
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In what way is he correct, Longprime?  

There have been many Socialist states and/or economies in history. Some have lasted, some have not, and a few have veered into Communism. There are multiple variations of the theme, but they exist. 

From wiki: 

Socialism: A socialist economy is based on some form of social ownership, which includes varieties of public ownership and independent cooperatives, over the means of production, wherein production is carried out to directly produce use-value sometimes, but not always, coordinated through economic planning and a system of accounting based on calculation-in-kind or a direct measure of labor-time."

Communism (from Latin communis - common, universal) is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of themeans of production, as well as a socialpolitical and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order. This movement, in its Marxist-Leninist interpretations, significantly influenced the history of the 20th century, which saw intense rivalry between the "socialist world" (socialist states ruled by Communist parties) and the "western world" (countries with market economies), culminating in theCold War between the Eastern bloc and the "Free World".

We can argue that those dictators that appropriated either a Socialist or Communist economic platform were doing it to control the masses, but why is it relevant?  

Not all Socialist or Communist leaders are despots, either.  

The point is that Joe Occupier didn't understand that Socialism has been an integral part of history for a long time.  

This is the part that gives me a headache.  

 




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Guru

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Posts: 2549
Date: May 10, 2012
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SLS, "We can argue that those dictators that appropriated either a Socialist or Communist economic platform were doing it to control the masses, but why is it relevant? " --Maybe the kid interpreted the question in a political context rather than an economic context? 

So, What did the Pig say. "Some of us are more equal than others." 

So what do we have in these US? A democracy/republic with free markets? I would say that in order to have a free market one also has to have a democracy-republic. You can not have one without the other. 

So in a socialist/communist economic system, can you have a democracy? I would say, no. You must have a dictatorship. Some of us are so contratian that only a dictator can impose order upon us and even that imposition is temporary. evileye

 

IMO, you cannot separate the two. Politics and Economics is the left and right side of the body. evileye



-- Edited by longprime on Thursday 10th of May 2012 06:43:49 PM

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Guru

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Posts: 2549
Date: May 10, 2012
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In a way, could that young man be correct?

The countries that we normally think as socialist or communist were perhaps more of a Dictatorship than the economic systems mentioned. The imposed economic system was the mechanism that the dictator used to domesticate the proletariat.



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Guru

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Date: May 10, 2012
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I studied History in college.  It's easier to remember dates and such, but not so easy to understand context and how it fits in the bigger equation.  

Most of the kids I work with in my area are quite good at making those connections.  I have no idea where that young man went to school, but I was horrified.  I am hoping he is not attending an elite Eastern school - if he is, I question his credentials for getting in.  Not everyone can master Calculus, but every US student should have a good familarity with US history.  There are probably international students that apply that understand the nuances of our country's history better than this young Occupier! 

There were a couple of times during that video that made me think it was a spoof - he really didn't know any Socialist (or Communist) country?  Didn't know that people were rounded up and taken away, permanently and violently, from their families?  How could this be so?  

Then again, there are also folks out there who deny the Holocaust ever happened.  

 



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Senior Member

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Date: May 10, 2012
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I would love to know where that kid went to school.  The video was fantastic.

My son is in 8th grade in a NYC public school.  I'm a history buff, particularly American history, and am extremely well read on the subject.  D1 is a certified middle and high school history/social studies/economics/civics teacher, and D2 is a medievaist.  Son is my only kid who went to public school at this age and his depth and breadth of knowledge of history staggers me.  They learn names, dates, background, tiny details within larger issue. He is incredibly conversant on obscure details and causes of major events.  Son would have made mincemeat of the young man in the video.  I wonder if that young man went to a crunchy private school or something because it's a myth that NYC public schools don't teach history.  They emphatically do.  (Crappy job in math and literacy, but that's another rant.)



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Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1832
Date: May 9, 2012
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One of the highlights of this video is when the Russian man asks the young Occupier "Has there ever been a socialist country?

and the man answers: "I don't believe so."

I weep for the future.

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/occupier-thanks-former-soviet-citizen-converting-him-capitalism-pro-israel-pro-usa

 



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