Political & Elections

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

RE: Young people and credit cards...

hope · Guru

"If you don't believe your kids should have credit cards in college, that's perfectly fine."

Thanks. And if you want to give your kids cc's that's fine too. I never said others had to agree with me; I have taken umbrage at the implication that parents who don't encourage their kids to have cc's under the age of 21 and/or before they are employed full-time are somehow not teaching their kids financial responsiblity, sheltering them, etc. etc.

Having to pay for things with money you actually have is not a bad lesson to have established in one's kids before they move to credit either, imo.

There is a reason that Congress enacted sweeping credit card reforms in 2009--esp. in marketing to kids. Kids are graduating with on average $3,500 - $4,000 for items above and beyond essentials in credit card debt, not to mentnion the rampant credit card abuse among adults in this country. It is a real problem. Like hooking kids on cigarettes, alcohol or anything else, hooking them on plastic early is how some people earn their livings. I'm not sure how much of the need to have a credit score before one has a full-time job is hype. Romani's mom is a banker.

Interesting article:

http://www.black-collegian.com/news/archives/creditcard305.shtml

-- Edited by hope on Saturday 31st of December 2011 05:15:39 PM

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Hope- $84 would pay my credit card bill with plenty to spare. Just buying a pack of gum is enough to build credit. It almost seems to me that you think credit cards should only be for major purchases- but you need credit to eventually make those major purchases. If you make a purchase, that you were going to make with a debit card or cash anyway, on your credit card and then go and pay it off, it's not going to cost you anything extra AND you're building credit. It just seems like common sense to me to build your credit in that case- what could it POSSIBLY harm you?

My primary job is my education and I think I'm doing a pretty damn good job at that. I have a 3.8+ GPA and I will be graduating with 2 degrees. However, that still leaves me plenty of time to work. I work around 30-35 hours a week during the semester (which I can do but I fully understand that most students can not), but even when I was working only 8 hours, I still had no problem paying my credit cards (and I made less at that job than your student makes).

And btw, I got my car because I had good credit AND a good job. It's in my own name and I didn't need my parents to co-sign for it.

And some apartments run credit checks, some don't. Mine most certainly did. MANY do nowadays- it's different than in the past. Any other loans you apply for will run a credit check and I really think we should encourage young people to build credit early so that they don't need their parents to co-sign a loan when they're 24ish years old. I really didn't want my parents to cosign my auto loan because they would have been on it until I was 25. IMO, that's too old to be sharing accounts with your parents. If you're not getting a car until after graduation then your parents might be on a cosigned loan with you until you're nearly 30. I just don't want that and I don't know too many of my peers that want it either.

As for the first thing you quoted, I was clearly referring to teenagers in general. IMO they're not given nearly enough responsibility about anything and I do firmly believe that it will bite them in the future.

As for the second thing you quoted, I was surprised at how few people agreed with me. I thought it was common sense to try to build good credit early on- I just assumed many educated people knew that. So yes, it surprised me. It's not a judgmental statement, it was just some surprise on my part. I didn't say they were ignorant, it was just the opposite of what I would have expected. Again, I consider them educated and it surprised me how little they actually knew about what it was like to be a young person in this economy with no credit. Yes, I'm going to say that I know better than them what it's like to apply for loans and such as an early 20 year old in this economy- not a knock to them, I just know better about this particular instance because I'm currently living it. Sorry, but it's true because I've been there and they have not. Just as I won't pretend at all to understand what it's like to be a parent or someone who was a young person 20 years ago or what it was like to actually be able to pay your way through college and so on.

Again, as I've made clear throughout, these are all MY opinions as a young person in this economy.

-- Edited by romanigypsyeyes on Saturday 31st of December 2011 01:19:19 PM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

There are all kinds of reasons to start building credit early. One of which is to learn how to manage credit. At some point, most of us will have to use a credit card to book a plane ticket or car rental or hotel (way better than using a debit card). There also might be an emergency for which you do not have enough funds in your checking account.

Nobody is saying anyone should abuse credit cards.

A couple of years ago, when my husband was out of work and it was our first Christmas wondering what was going to come next, we scaled everything back. Didn't put a single dime on our credit cards. Then that week, one of the boys was going to take his car back to school. He did a major servicing - brakes, tune up, etc. Then while in the shop they found a crack in the transmission. They were going to have to order parts and they would be costly - about $2000 for a new transmission case plus labor. I didn't have that kind of money laying around. Neither would my son.

Back then, we had given our son a credit card to use in case of emergency.

That's a fairly extreme emergency, but what about the other kinds? The you don't want to hand over your debit/checking card number to someone because of the fraud liabilities?

It's always safer for you to make big purchases on a credit card than it is on a debit card. Just ask anyone who has had their checking account cleaned out by an identity thief.

You will likely get your money back, but it may take a while. And you will pay for it, if you bounce things along the way because of outstanding checks. This happened to my friend this year. Single mom with 5 kids. It cost her hundreds and lots of time to deal with customer service agents over the phone.

My husband accidentally left his debit card at a restaurant a couple of weeks ago. They were closed for several days and they are only open limited hours. That was our checking/debit card. Freaked me out. Fortunately, nothing has shown up on it fraudulent yet, and I hope it doesn't. However, it could. I even asked him why he used that card at the restaurant (he just grabbed the wrong one).

I don't think anyone is freaking out about it here with this conversation. We all have different perspectives.

It's always safer to scan a gas purchase as a credit transaction instead of a debit transaction. There are folks who do have scanners that steal those numbers. Even our own local gas station has a sign up that says to use caution with debit cards.

Kids who want to get their own phone plans also may want to have a credit card. Without it, they may have to provide a deposit. When I set up ATT Uverse a few years ago, they ran my credit report. What if I were a kid just out of college moving out on my own? It would be tough to do without credit history. Cable isn't just for tv watching - it's also internet.

If you don't believe your kids should have credit cards in college, that's perfectly fine.

Some of us do see the value in teaching our kids how to manage credit early - not just ours, but their own, while we have some control as parents. Each of my kids got checking accounts when they had part time jobs in high school. I taught them how to do their own tax returns, if needed. Then again, I believe that with all kinds of things - like making sure my kids learned to drive with us to learn the rules of the road, teaching them how to be a responsible drinker, how to balance their financial budgets, etc.

hope · Guru

Eye of the beholder. Examples:

"People expect them to be screw-ups so many are kept sheltered. "

Not having a credit card in college is somehow related to being "kept sheltered?"

"It was one or two parents, but more of them than I would have thought (given that it's a pretty educated crowd) agreed that you should wait til you graduate to get one. It surprised me."

Not believing it's necessary for your kid to have a card in college is an uneducated opinion?

-- Edited by hope on Saturday 31st of December 2011 11:53:51 AM

-- Edited by hope on Saturday 31st of December 2011 12:18:35 PM

-- Edited by hope on Saturday 31st of December 2011 12:20:51 PM

Cartera · Guru

I don't see any frantic, panicked or judgmental posts here.

hope · Guru

"A student should only have a credit card if he or she has a job or some sort of income to support this financial tool," Davis says.

I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that college kids typically earn enough money that having a credit card (or cards!) is a good idea. Lots and lots of college kids do not have, or are not able, to have jobs. I don't know what kind of job(s) you have, romani, but it is typically recommended that kids hold jobs of between ten and twenty hours (and twenty is pushing it in most opinions) while in college. Studies have shown (look it up) that jobs of around ten hours actually help kids stay focused, but returns in terms of gpa's are diminished as you head toward twenty. My kid gets $9 an hour at his work-study job. He nets $84 a week. This is his spending money. He worked at an unpaid internship at a Sentator's local office for the summer, so was obviously unable to put away savings. What is he supposed to put on credit? My husband and I each have one credit card, and we pay off the balance each month. Sorry, we don't believe in handing over money to credit card companies if we can help it. As far as I'm concerned, he has enough on his plate at college what with trying to maintain his high gpa, his ec's, and his job, without having to think about putting some measly purchase on his card each month and remembering to pay it off. His first job is to do well in school, get a good paying job after graduation or grad school, and then he can worry about credit cards. As I said, neither I after college (for multiple apartments during my twenties) nor my son needed a credit score to get an apartment. I'm pretty sure if son #2 gets a decent paying job, and shows he has held jobs since the age of 15, and shows he had excellent grades during college, while holding down a job (i.e., being extremely responsible), he can find someone to rent him an apartment. Also, most kids typically have parents who are willing to co-sign a loan for a kid's clunker first time around.If yours didn't, romani, or you didn't want them to, you are probably in the minority. I didn't have a car until I was 26, btw. Lived in the city.

I am not understanding the frantic, judgmental, and panicky tone of some of these posts here and on CC. Looked over there at the thread on this--guess I agree with thumper.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

UGMA isn't a revolving bill...isn't that the main component of what credit scores are based on?

I still don't think debit cards can help in creating a credit profile.

Here is an article about helping teenagers and student build credit. The piggybacking credit card idea seems like a good idea:

10 ways students can build good credit

There are tricks and techniques, but it boils down to being responsible

By Emily Starbuck Gerson and Jeremy M. Simon


Credit card tips mentioned in this article
Become an authorized user on your parents' account. Open up your own credit card. Get the right credit card for you. Use the credit card for occasional, small purchases. Avoid big-ticket buys, except in case of emergency. Pay off your balance each month. Pay all your other bills on time. Don't co-sign for your friends. Do not apply for several credit cards at one time. Only use student loans for education expenses and pay on time.
More inside Credit Card Help
7 things you must know about credit cards 10 worst credit card mistakes 8 things you must know about credit card debt 10 things you should know about identity theft

One of the most exciting parts of growing up is becoming financially independent, but learning how to do so can be challenging. Building good credit is a must: It will help you qualify for loans, auto insurance, rental applications, cell phone plans and can even affect whether you get a job.

How do you get started? The Credit CARD Act, most of which took effect in 2010, changed the rules of the game. However, put simply, it still all comes down to being responsible.

CreditCards.com asked several financial experts to explain how students can effectively build good credit. Here's what they recommend:

1. Become an authorized user on your parents' account. "I always advise parents when the student is going off to college, unless you're 100 percent sure they're responsible, the first credit card that student should have is yours," says Mike Sullivan, director of education for Take Charge America, a Phoenix-based nonprofit financial education and consumer debt service organization.

The teen should be an authorized user on the parent's account so the adult can monitor the child's spending. Additionally, this can help the student build good credit via "piggybacking," a controversial practice that FICO -- creator of the widely used credit score that bears its name -- continues to permit among family members. In piggybacking, a parent makes a child an authorized user. If the parent has good credit, the child's credit gets a boost.

While becoming an authorized user has long been a popular choice for students aiming to build good credit, for some it may now be the only choice. In the wake of the Credit CARD Act, people under the age of 21 now must have a co-signer or show proof of independent income if they want to get approved for a card in their own name. In short, that means that if you can't prove to the issuer that you have the means to pay your balances, you probably won't get a card.

2. Open up your own credit card. If you can provide proof of income, it may be time to apply for a card in your name. But know that things have changed from the days when every college freshman's dorm mailbox overflowed with credit card offers and card issuers rained free pizza and T-shirts on students who applied. In this post-Credit CARD Act era, most issuers are no longer clamoring to put a credit card in the hands of every college student. Some no longer offer student cards; others switched to pushing debit cards on campus. Also know that when you receive a credit card that's all yours -- one with no co-signers -- the responsibility for handling the card wisely and repaying your debts falls squarely on your shoulders.

3. Get the right credit card for you. Once a student is able to qualify for a regular card on his or her own, it's important to remember that not all credit cards are the same, says Clarky Davis, the "Debit Diva" for CareOne Credit Counseling, a debt relief service provider based in Columbia, Md. Before a student applies for a credit card, "he or she must do some research to find a card with the most benefits -- a lower interest rate, no annual fees, reasonable credit limits and clear billing policies." If you think you might carry a balance, go with a no-frills, low interest credit card. A reward credit card may sound cooler, but the higher annual percentage rate(APR) and possible annual fee won't be worth it.

VIDEO: Don't haul yourself
into credit card debt

You've read what you should do to build good credit; now, here's something you should never do. Frequent shopping trips can send credit card debt out of control faster than you could imagine. This video, a parody of the popular haul video genre, drives that point home.

PLUS: Top 10 ways students ruin their credit

Sullivan says some students should consider starting out with a retail card. Retail cards come with fewer benefits and lower spending limits, Davis says, but using this card and paying the bill regularly will build good credit. Davis says those who can't qualify for a retail card will need asecured credit card, which is attached to a savings account. However, if the student pays the bill responsibly and on time, he or she will eventually qualify for a regular credit card. That includes student credit cards, products that are directly aimed at consumers who may lack significant borrowing history.

4. Use the credit card for occasional, small purchases. Since responsible card use and on-time repayments will help you build a good credit history, while also discouraging the bank from closing your account due to inactivity, don't just leave that plastic sitting in your wallet. "Getting a credit card means you start a credit history and shows on your credit report that you have one account and no late payments," Sullivan says. "But if you really want to start credit, you have to use the card."

One way to do that? Consider putting small, recurring charges on your card: Think of regular expenses, such as groceries or website subscriptions (such as Netflix), that you won't have trouble repaying at the end of the month.

5. Avoid big-ticket buys, except in case of emergency. "A credit card is a valuable financial tool. However, students must be able to manage their credit card responsibly to benefit from using the tool," Davis says. Keeping your debt levels low will ensure that if there is an emergency expense, you'll still have plenty of your credit line accessible. That way, if your tire blows out or your cell phone falls in the toilet, you can purchase a replacement without exceeding your credit limit.

6. Pay off your balance each month. When you are first building good credit, do your best not to carry a balance on the card. Use the card only for purchases you can afford, and pay off the balance at the end of each month. What if you can't? You are living beyond your means and shouldn't be making those purchases. "A student should only have a credit card if he or she has a job or some sort of income to support this financial tool," Davis says. If you carry a balance, you will owe interest fees. Why pay a fee if you don't have to?

7. Pay all your other bills on time. Think only your credit card affects your credit? That's how it used to be, says Sullivan, but "right now, there are a lot of folks, including credit bureaus, who are developing alternative credit scores for no-file people, which includes lots of young people. They're giving some credibility to utility payments." One of the three major U.S. credit bureaus, Experian, collects and lists rental payments on its credit reports. However, it's still a relatively new phenomenon, and most landlords don't yet report to the bureaus.

More on how the Credit CARD Act impacts students
For more on this topic, check out this video: Credit card video: New credit card laws changes relationship between colleges, issuers

Sullivan says other dues, such as taxes and library fees, can make a difference, too. He has seen students whose credit has been ruined because they failed to pay a traffic fine. Davis agrees: "Paying all your bills -- from apartment rent to your Internet service -- consistently and on time is essential."

8. Don't co-sign for your friends. Just like you may need an adult co-signer to get approved for a card, your under-21 friends will, too. To help them get approved for a card, some of these friends may approach you to become a joint account holder. "I have found that some students are getting older students (fraternity brothers, etc.) to co-sign. That is quite dangerous," Sullivan says in an email. Consumer experts have a tip for you: Don't. That's because when a friend slips up -- by taking on too much debt or missing payments to the bank -- the co-signer can quickly see their own credit ruined. "You not only become liable for everything charged if your friend decides not to pay, but it could blemish your own credit record," says Edgar Dworsky, founder of the website ConsumerWorld.org.

Making your friend an authorized user also poses risks. Once again, their mistakes can hurt your credit, although -- unlike when you co-sign on a card -- an authrorized user can be easily removed from the account.

9. Do not apply for several credit cards at one time. Now that you have credit in your own name, don't go wild. If you apply for too much credit in too short a period of time, your credit score will fall. If you have built up strong credit over several years, it will hurt you less, "but if you have barely established credit and apply for multiple cards, it can lower your credit score significantly," Sullivan says. One credit card should be enough for most college students, he says. How many cards should you have? "To prevent excessive credit card debt, it's better for consumers to have as few credit cards as possible. Having just one card is ideal for most students," Davis says.

10. Use student loans for education expenses only, and pay on time. "Students should view their student loan as a great way to cultivate important habits that will help them build and maintain good credit," Davis says. If you use them correctly, that is. Sullivan says he sees a lot of young people take out student loans to buy cars and other noneducation items. "Manage your loans by only borrowing what you need to go to school -- that keeps the balance down," Sullivan says. "When you get out of school, be prepared to consolidate when appropriate."

Davis and Sullivan agree that the real key to keeping your loans healthy is to make at least the minimum payment every month and do it on time. Davis recommends paying more than the minimum to pay the loan off faster, and emphasizes that payments should be received by the creditor on or before the due date on the statement to keep the account in good standing.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Bank accounts and savings accounts don't show up on your credit report/credit score/credit history (I can't tell if that's what you meant or not). I don't know whether or not UGMA would. I don't see why they would considering they have nothing to do with your credit worthiness.

-- Edited by romanigypsyeyes on Saturday 31st of December 2011 12:51:43 AM

longprime · Guru

a joint card with your parent will show up on your credit report. A gas card with a low credit limit is enough. A bank account. A savings account. A bank account with over draft protection (limited loan). All works.

DS had a UGMA so that by the time he was 18, he had a enormous credit history,

He has a unsubsidiized stafford loan that he began paying on the first month, before he even got the first statement,

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

My first apartment required a credit check. I had established a credit history, so it was fine.

Things like auto loans are impacted, as Romani said...without it, you will pay more in interest.

Also - there are some jobs that require credit history. I guess if you don't have it, it won't count against you. But it won't help you build up a good score, either, through long term use!

My daughter in high school has a debit card through her checking account but it won't help her build credit, I don't believe. We will need to get her started before she heads off to school.

busdriver11 · Guru

Kids got credit cards when they started driving, about 16. They drove themselves to school, which is alot of driving, and were constantly filling up the tank. They only used it for gas and food (which we paid for), and if they bought something they were responsible to pay for, like a computer game...they told us and we deducted it from their bank account. It was for safety and convenience, and neither of them abuses it. It would be a different deal if they were spending it on things they shouldn't, or a different sort of kid. Neither of them are spenders anyways. I wouldn't want them carrying around a large wad of cash all the time, I'd prefer them to use plastic (and get airmiles).

Cartera · Guru

Yes, it has nothing to do with needing the credit card for money. It is all about building a credit history. It has come in handy a few times though when an unexpected expense comes up at school. D is a music major so she downloads sheet music farily often and she uses the card for that too. She also uses it for gas. I'm more comfortable with her using the card than carrying much cash. The montly payments are made out of her checking account so I'm not paying the bill.

-- Edited by Cartera on Wednesday 28th of December 2011 10:59:04 PM

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Watchu talkin bout, Willis? I watched it all the time growing up (yes, it was cancelled a few years before I was born). I love old shows from all different eras. Mr. Ed was my favorite. Your suspicions would be wrong.

hope · Guru

Well, romani, diff. strokes for diff. folks (suspect you probably don't remember that show, or song :)).

Expect we'll co-sign a loan for a car for younger, IF he needs one, which is not a given, as we did for older. Expect younger to pay off his Staffords, as we did older. Expect younger to get a job after graduation and secure his own apartment with his own money, as did older (tho grad school may be in the picture for younger). Always expected kids to have jobs for their spending money, and live within those means for extras, which they have done. Older now has, I think, two credit cards. Younger has a Wells Fargo debit/"Visa" card, into which he has his work-study money direct-deposited. We are able to deposit money into that account for emergencies, etc. and it is available to him immediately.

We like to keep it simple. So far it's worked for us. :)

-- Edited by hope on Wednesday 28th of December 2011 08:18:09 PM

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

It's not about needing the actual credit card, it's about needing the credit history. You don't have to use it necessarily to start building credit. When I was in high school, I put a tank of gas on it a month and then paid it off.

As for not being great with money, that's why you start with a low-credit card and that's why you teach children from a young age how important it is to have credit. Perhaps most kids aren't great with money because their parents don't address it with them? Kids are smarter than you think if you just take the time to explain things rather than telling them "no". I am firmly convinced that many teens are irresponsible because they are not given decent expectations. People expect them to be screw-ups so many are kept sheltered.

As for an apartment, it's much easier than anything else because you have to pay first and last month's rent plus a deposit of some sort. If you bail, the apartment complex can quickly recover. Not so much with a car loan or personal loan or whatever.

By the way, most of my friends had credit cards as soon as they got a job. Many of them were NOT responsible about money, but I only know of one who has ever missed a payment. My close friends (about 5-6) all got cards through my mom's bank (she tried to press its importance- most of my high school friends came from "dysfunctional" families and many of my friends looked to my parents to be actual parents). A few ran up their cards and then realized how much payments sucked so they paid down their cards quickly and only use them now in emergencies or rarely.

-- Edited by romanigypsyeyes on Wednesday 28th of December 2011 07:29:26 PM

hope · Guru

I must admit my husband and I never gave this any thought. One son is 25, has an excellent job in the IT field, and seemed to have no trouble getting an apartment in 2010. As far as I know, he did not have a credit card prior to landing this job. My other son is a junior in college and is 21, has no credit card (although the offers come to our home weekly!), and since he only earns $85 a week at his work-study job for spending money, but we pay for all other essentials, I can't imagine what he would need to buy on credit, let alone how he would pay for it out of his earnings, without putting himself in a hole eventually. Maybe you are out of the ordinary, romani, but most college-aged kids are not great with money. I know I wasn't at that age, or even into my mid-twenties.

If either of our kids would have asked us our opinion about credit cards before landing a full-pay job, I tend to think we would have advised against it.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

@cart- Little jumped on. It was one or two parents, but more of them than I would have thought (given that it's a pretty educated crowd) agreed that you should wait til you graduate to get one. It surprised me.

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

People underestimate how important their credit history is. I have heard that having a card with nothing ever charged to it or balances paid in full doesn't help credit history for new borrowers. It's always good to have something on it, pay for it and then show you are responsible.

Sometimes people get sent to collections from my work. It's usually for tiny, tiny amounts. They tend to ignore them and then it causes this huge trouble down the line.

Cartera · Guru

I agree with you and did that with my D. She has had a credit card since she was a freshman. I haven't seen the thread in which you were jumped on but I'm surprised that parents did so. In other similar threads, it seemed to be something that many agreed upon. Some people are just contrarians and have to disagree about everything.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

After that thread, I texted my mom and thanked her for being a good parent. She was very confused. We don't tend to give compliments to each other, let alone random ones.

Omnomnom, I guess I'd rather be lion food than living at my parent's house after college. Or have most of those people as parents *shudder*.

ETA: I also found out over Christmas that my sister and I (who are from different moms with very different prorities- mine's a saver, hers is a spender) both got newish cars around the same time. Despite being 5 years older with a better paying job than I have, she got a rate about 4% higher for her car. Similiar cars, I just have better credit history than her. It's wrong to take some glee in this, but we have a very competitive relationship.

-- Edited by romanigypsyeyes on Wednesday 28th of December 2011 03:50:45 PM

SamuraiLandshark · Guru

Romani,

You are just being smart. Those parents are idiots. The Parents Forum is a little like the Lion's Den. Sometimes you get eaten alive by the lions, even when you are a parent! I started developing credit in college...so did my husband. When we were leasing a car for my oldest son, we opted to put him on the title, so he can get started establishing good credit.

romanigypsyeyes · Guru

Well, since I got a little jumped over on the CC thread about this- tell me parents, do you believe it's important for young people to get a credit card early in college? Did your children get credit cards early?

I am a young person (so of course, what would I know about being a young person in this economy?), and I have been able to get a lot of things in my name because I have fairly long-term credit and a good job. My mom always stressed the importance of building credit and I did so very young. It is VERY difficult right now to get anything (apartments, higher-limit credit cards, cars, etc) with just a good job when you're in your early 20s given the volatile economy. They want to see that you've been able to make payments on something. Despite the fact that I was making good money, most car companies that I tried to buy from last February wanted 2 years of credit history to allow you to get a car without a co-signer if it was going to require a monthly payment.

According to some parents, I have no idea what I'm talking about (that it's important to build credit throughout college) since I'm a 20 year old IN this economy with lots of my friends struggling after graduation (a lot due to lack of credit), who has gone through many applications without parental help, and who has a banker (who specializes in loans and mortgages) mother who has been drilling this into me since I was in the craddle. What could I POSSIBLY know? I forgot that on the parents forum, you have to be at least 30 before you know anything. (Sorry, I just realy hate being blown off because of my age. Ignore this last paragraph, I just needed to blow off some steam.)

So tell me parents, when did your kids first get credit cards? Do you think it's wrong of me to suggest that people start building credit early in college provided they have a job? (I'm talking low-limit cards like $300-500).