Political & Elections

busdriver11 · Guru

RE: Steve Jobs to Obama "one term"

Tom1944 · Senior Member

busdriver- Wendy Koop from Teach for America has said that the teacher turnover rate is basically the same in districts with unions or without unions, private schools compared to public schools, States with strong tenure vs States with weak tenure. She says that to her is a major problem in education-that the system is static not dynamic. She acknowledges that she is not a fan of tenure or unions but that tenure and unions are not really the issue.

busdriver11 · Guru

I know exactly what you mean, Tom. The press messes up the stories all the time, for sure. In fact, not too long ago, my husband performed quick CPR on a kid who had one of those incidents where people usually die in minutes. It was really dramatic. And the newspaper wrote up the story that a nurse saved his life (who was actually a nursing student who was too flustered to do anything but try to take the kids pulse). Not that he wanted his name in the paper, but for them to get some of the major details right.

I can say from my own experience, I have witnessed multiple unengaged, dull teachers sliding through on their seniority in public schools. But in my kids private school, they have to be extremely good, or they "let them go" very quickly. More turnover, definitely, but far better teachers. No union, no seniority protection, but they get the same pay as the public school teachers, and a class that is very interested.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

busdriver- I have been involved in certain media stories via work that I now take the reporting with a grain of salt. My dad says if you are ever involved in circumstances that end up being written about in the papers you will never believe anything you read again.

busdriver11 · Guru

It's alot different being in a union for a private company than government worker unions. And maybe it varies by state. For us, if we get a nasty letter from the company three times in six months (for something like not making a trip in time, not showing up), we can get fired. I don't know that the union could protect us against that. But you'd have to be really unlucky or an idiot for that to happen, in sixteen years I don't have one letter in my file.

But when I was in the military, I watched my commander try desperately to fire his secretary. Piles of documentation, meetings, he was never able to fire her. The best I could do to help him was to convince her to turn in a letter of resignation. She didn't show about half of the time, and was often on drugs. Any of us in the military who did that would have found ourselves in Ft Leavenworth prison. I don't think he was incompetent, though he surely was a jerk.

We read in the papers every now and then about something the teachers union did that was horrendous. I'm sure if I was a teacher, I'd want a strong union. But I wouldn't want them protecting abusers, not a single one of them.

Cartera · Guru

I guess this varies according to where you live, but I have not witnessed any problem with the local schools getting rid of bad teachers. My D, her friends and other parents pretty much knew at the beginning of the school year which teachers were probably not going to be back the following year. Some were very inexperienced and probably lacked adequate training and some were very experienced and were just burned out. I am not aware of instances in which our local union protects bad teachers. I assume it happens elsewhere, because I read about it. I am much more alarmed about big money getting into the "privatize education" movement.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

I am a career manager in government with over 250 reports in my chain of command. All of them covered by a union. The union only asks that I follow the contract. If anyone thinks that the contract signed by the State does not allow me to remove employees they are lying to themselves. That so many people hate unions so much that they allow well paid managers to blame them when the manager has not done their job is just unreal to me.Hey but thanks it makes my life easier.

The problem is not unions the problem is supervisors that take the easy way and do not train the employee how to do the job and then fail to document any shortcomings the employee has. Most of the time it is because the supervisor is lazy, or is trying to get away with stuff himself or the organization has decided that other pressing paperwork is so vital that there is no time for true oversight of an employee. How is that any of the unions fault?

Now if an union employee screws up why is it a problem if the union represents them? The employer can still punish the employee. The union just makes sure the punishment is consistent with the transgression and consistent with the punishment meted out to other employees charged with the same issue.

It is not unions that our the problem they have their role. It is not their fault that the other side does not do its job properly.

busdriver11 · Guru

You know, the union issue swings both ways. We all know that absolutely terrible teachers, even some who have abused children, are protected by the unions. They protect the lowest common denominator, always....that is their job. People move up and get raises based upon seniority, not skill. People who should be fired are never considered for firing, because they are senior and protected by the unions.

I personally am a union worker. And I do like being a number, and the fact that my promotions are based upon who retires or dies in front of me. It is absolute security that I know the union stands behind even the weakest and shadiest individuals, because I know that if they stand by them in any situation, they will stand by me if I screw up. Even though I consider myself honorable and diligent, committed to doing the best job for my company. I do know where my paycheck comes from, and it's not the union-At least the union also understands where the paychecks come from, and does not desire to put the company out of business, or do anything whatsoever to score a point. In fact, I pay them over 10K a year just to be a member (though I have never needed their help, and feel I am way overpaying for their services). But I know the company has to overpay us, baby us in work rules, and it costs them alot of money. I think some people I work for are not mentally stable, and way below standards....but the union stands by and defends them.

There seems like there should be a reasonable balance between the two.

Cartera · Guru

I mean the principals appointed because of their connections to the local political machines will always do the right thing. I am sure they would never let politics or nepotism impact what they do.

Yep, that could be a nightmare. Can you imagine the uproar every time some power hungry principal fired a favored teacher? Maybe that principal feels threatened by super teacher - no problem, you're fired. Maybe that teacher spoke up about something a little hinky going on at the school - no problem, you're fired. Do people forget that there's a reason teachers have protection from being fired willy nilly? It was a correction to what did go on before there was job protection. Yes, it can be carried to the extreme, but turning it back over to the whims of principals and - God forbid - parents would be worse.

With all due respect to Steve Jobs, his suggestion shows that he has no expertise in education. As a teacher, I would say to him - "Mr. Jobs, I won't tell you how to make a better Apple if you don't tell me how to teach."

To my dismay, the President has bought into the notion that teachers should be judged largely by student test scores.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

See in NJ every government job is only filled by qualified individuals with no regard to political party. The governor has been so frugal that no manager has received a raise-oops that is only career managers. The politically connected -that is another story

A former executive of the New Jersey Chamber of Commerce claims in a lawsuit that she was repeatedly sexually harassed by what she called the prominent business group’s "boys club," which often got drunk during and after work, frequented strip clubs and ridiculed women.

The suit claims that one executive who participated in the harassment, James Leonard, was fired by the chamber in 2010 for unrelated reasons, but two chamber trustees got him a "plum" job in Gov. Chris Christie’s office, where he earns $130,000 a year as a policy adviser.

Tom1944 · Senior Member

In NJ I would really like to allow principals to hire and fire teachers without regard to union rules or tenure protection. I mean the principals appointed because of their connections to the local political machines will always do the right thing. I am sure they would never let politics or nepotism impact what they do.

CelticClan07 · Senior Member

pima wrote:

I didn't see that coming from him.

Pima- People who knew him well or work at Apple, have described him as a true Capitalist, with a hippie soul. I believe that is a great analogy of a very complex, often conflicted man.

jazzy · Senior Member

Interesting because at the end, despite the criticism, it says Jobs offered to help the president with the 2012 reelection campaign. aww

Actually, Obama has been responsive to the concerns Jobs described, cutting back on environmental regulations in the hopes of spurring job growth despite intense pressure and opposition from his political base.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/02/news/la-pn-obama-ozone-20110902

To Obama’s environmental base, the decision to back down from the ozone rules was the latest in a string of decisions and signals that suggest to them that the administration is backing away from key anti-pollution initiatives before the 2012 election to court business and anti-regulation voters.

Late last week, the State Department issued an environmental impact statement that removed a key hurdle to the construction of the widely criticized Keystone Xl oil pipeline. For two weeks now, hundreds of environmentalists, some of them former campaign workers for Obama, have been arrested for protesting the pipeline in front of theWhite House.

In a statement, the president said: "I have continued to underscore the importance of reducing regulatory burdens and regulatory uncertainty, particularly as our economy continues to recover. With that in mind, and after careful consideration, I have requested that Administrator [Lisa] Jackson withdraw the draft Ozone National Ambient Air Quality Standards at this time."

And regarding teachers and merit pay, Jobs was preaching to the choir where Obama is concerned.

http://articles.philly.com/2007-07-05/news/24994720_1_democrat-obama-education-policies-work-in-lower-performing-schools

Obama's endorsement of merit pay for teachers was the first note deviating from the promise-anything tenor of visits by several presidential candidates to the union this week.

Obama said that improving public education was vital to the U.S. ability to compete in a global economy, pointing out that students here score well below their counterparts in other industrialized nations, particularly in science and mathematics.

This in an address to the National Education Association, in 2007.

pima · Guru

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66537.html

Interesting article.

Steve Jobs told President Barack Obama he was “headed for a one-term presidency,” citing the U.S.’s competitive disadvantages with China and a “crippled” education system, a new biography of the former Apple CEO indicates....Jobs also told Obama that “regulations and unnecessary costs” put the United States at a competitive disadvantage with China, where companies can build factories more cheaply.

The recently deceased Jobs also told Obama that the education system was “crippled by union work rules,” according to Isaacson. Jobs proposed principals be able to hire and fire teachers based on merit, and to extend the length of both the school day and academic year.

I didn't see that coming from him.