the Egyptian democracy will quickly change their "we should kill Israel" mind if they find themselves being crushed by Israel [with US backing] once again.
My statement that Israel would prefer to be neighbors with a democracy that supports freedom and human rights leaves room, I suppose, for the possibility of a democracy that does not support freedom or human rights.
That said, it's hard to envision a true democracy that does not contain the free exchange of ideas, freedom of speech, and a free press that is independent of the government. Of course, all freedoms have their limits and different democracies have different tolerances for those limits (e.g., many European democracies ban speech and political affiliations that we would tolerate). But by and large, if you can't voice your political views without being imprisoned or shot in the knees, it ain't a democracy. Simply having an election does not make a place a democracy. It's what follows the election that counts. Many authoritarian regimes have used elections to reach power, only to discard even the pretense of democracy later.
I'll concede that our own history of slavery and lack of women's suffrage shows that democracy is not a sufficient condition for universal human rights. But it is arguably a necessary one.
-- Edited by FarmDad on Saturday 5th of February 2011 02:08:19 PM
I have a problem with Farmdad's implicit equation of democracy with human rights and freedom.
The phrase "tyranny of the majority" comes to mind.
Let the Egyptians vote to do what they really want, and there will be no reasonable relationship with Israel.
Paradoxically enough, it is only the "evil dictators" in the Middle East that are willing to co-exist with Israel due to various economic and "realpolitik" considerations.
The "average" Middle Eastern Muslim would vote to whack Isreal if they could.
That is not PC but it is true.
-- Edited by BigG on Saturday 5th of February 2011 08:17:37 AM
Yeah, sure. Israel is responsible for the corruption that exists in Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world for that matter. Just how has Israel "propped up" Mubarek anyway? By signing a peace agreement with his predecessor, returning the Sinai, maintaining a peaceful relationship for over 30 years, and cooperating strategically against Hamas and Iran? Mubarek has survived all these years in spite of his govenrment's peaceful relationship with Israel (that is not supported by the majority of Egyptians), not because of it.
I'm sure if given the choice, Israel would prefer to have as its neighbor a democracy that supports the freedoms and human rights that Israel accords its own citizens, and does not want to destroy it, but that has never been an option. Israel has no control over what freedoms Arab leaders decide to give their people. But who are you to condemn them for having anxiety about the likelihood of going from having a neighbor that hates them but has agreed not to go to war with them to having a neighbor that hates them even more and wants to destroy them?
Most certainly. Countries look after their own interests first. If a government is not going to support "destroy Israel/hate USA "as a top priority, then they will support it. Look what happened when we supported democracy first in the Palestinian territories, they voted in Hamas. The US, and certainly Israel, rightfully, are more interested in governments that will coexist with them than anything else. Bummer the vast majority of Middle Eastern nations seem to always either be ruled by dictators, or religious theocracies. Which is obviously not working well for a majority of the population.
I am with you there, Farmdad. Israel is an oasis of sanity and hope in the Middle East. I think that resentment and jealousy over how successful the Israelis have been in building a free and prosperous society, is probably contributing to the continuing hatred towards them. Worry about how the situation in Egypt will affect them is keeping me up at night.
Yes, this is where we pro-Israel zionists find ourselves. It's hard not to feel admiration and support for those who take to the streets peacefully (until the pro-government thugs arrived), at great risk to themselves, to exercise their yearning for freedom and democracy, even knowing that nearly every last one of the "good guys" would opt to destroy you if given the chance.
They all warned us. The geniuses at Peace Now. The brilliant diplomats. The think tanks. Even the Arab dictators warned us. For decades now, they have been warning us that if you want "peace in the Middle East," just fix the Palestinian problem. A recent variation on this theme has been: Just get the Jews in the West Bank and East Jerusalem to "freeze" their construction, and then, finally, Palestinian leaders might come to the table and peace might break out.
And what would happen if peace would break out between Jews and Palestinians? Would all those furious Arabs now demonstrating on the streets of Cairo and across the Middle East feel any better? Would they feel less oppressed?
What bloody nonsense.
Has there ever been a greater abuse of the English language in international diplomacy than calling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the "Middle East peace process?" As if there were only two countries in the Middle East.
Even if you absolutely believe in the imperative of creating a Palestinian state, you can't tell me that the single-minded and global obsession with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict at the expense of the enormous ills in the rest of the Middle East hasn't been idiotic, if not criminally negligent.
While tens of millions of Arabs have been suffering for decades from brutal oppression, while gays have been tortured and writers jailed and women humiliated and dissidents killed, the world -- yes, the world -- has obsessed with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
As if Palestinians -- the same coddled victims on whom the world has spent billions and who have rejected one peace offer after another -- were the only victims in the Middle East.
As if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has anything to do with the 1,000-year-old bloody conflict between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, or the desire of brutal Arab dictators to stay in power, or the desire of Islamist radicals to bring back the Caliphate, or the economic despair of millions, or simply the absence of free speech or basic human rights throughout the Arab world.
While self-righteous Israel bashers have scrutinized every flaw in Israel's democracy -- some waxing hysterical that the Jewish democratic experiment in the world's nastiest neighborhood has turned into an embarrassment -- they kept their big mouths shut about the oppression of millions of Arabs throughout the Middle East.
They cried foul if Israeli Arabs -- who have infinitely more rights and freedoms than any Arabs in the Middle East -- had their rights compromised in any way. But if a poet was jailed in Jordan or a gay man was tortured in Egypt or a woman was stoned in Syria, all we heard was screaming silence.
Think of the ridiculous amount of media ink and diplomatic attention that has been poured onto the Israel-Palestinian conflict over the years, while much of the Arab world was suffering and smoldering, and tell me this is not criminal negligence. Do you ever recall seeing a U.N. resolution or an international conference in support of Middle Eastern Arabs not named Palestinians?
Of course, now that the Arab volcano has finally erupted, all those chronic Israel bashers have suddenly discovered a new cause: Freedom for the poor oppressed Arabs of the Middle East!
Imagine if those Israel bashers, during all the years they put Israel under their critical and hypocritical microscope, had taken Israel's imperfect democratic experiment and said to the Arab world: Why don't you try to emulate the Jews?
Why don't you give equal rights to your women and gays, just like Israel does?
Why don't you give your people the same freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom to vote that Israel gives its people? And offer them the economic opportunities they would get in Israel? Why don't you treat your Jewish citizens the same way Israel treats its Arab citizens?
Why don't you study how Israel has struggled to balance religion with democracy -- a very difficult but not insurmountable task?
Why don't you teach your people that Jews are not the sons of dogs, but a noble, ancient people with a 3,000-year connection to the land of Israel?
Yes, imagine if Israel bashers had spent a fraction of their energy fighting the lies of Arab dictators and defending the rights of millions of oppressed Arabs. Imagine if President Obama had taken 1 percent of the time he has harped on Jewish settlements to defend the democratic rights of Egyptian Arabs -- which he is suddenly doing now that the volcano has erupted.
Maybe it's just easier to beat up on a free and open society like Israel.
Well, now that the cesspool of human oppression in the Arab world has been opened for all to see, how bad is Israel's democracy looking? Don't you wish the Arab world had a modicum of Israel's civil society? And that it was as stable and reliable and free and open as Israel?
You can preach to me all you want about the great Jewish tradition of self-criticism -- which I believe in -- but right now, when I see poor Arab souls being killed for protesting on the street, and the looming threat that one Egyptian Pharaoh may be replaced by an even more oppressive one, I've never felt more proud of being a supporter of the Jewish state.