Political & Elections

I just heard that on the news, and it made me also think about the Navy plane that got caught in Korean airspace yrs ago.

The other thing I immediately laughed about was, so they stole our stealth capability that was created 30 yrs ago back in 1998, heck, we don't even use the 117 anymore. They also stole it one yr after the 22 made it's 1st flight. Their F-20 took their first flight 12 yrs after stealing it, and there is no operational squadron yet. Meanwhile the 22 is operational, and the initial cadre for the 35 is churning up. By the time they have their F20 operational we will be test flying our 6th generation aircraft while they are just starting off on their 5th.

I think China will be a force someday...maybe depending on how they handle their aging crisis and economy due to the 1 child rule. People are forgetting the economy impacts the military. China is going to be facing economic trials just like every other country because our elderly are living longer and that causes a great strain on the economy to provide benefits.

For China to truly be a threat they need to hook up with other countries as Allies. A few lessons that you need to realize when it comes to the military. Iran right now has rusted out F-16s on their runways, they have no AF. Why, because one they stopped playing nice with the US we stopped selling them parts. Iraq folded so quickly for the same reason. So who will China play with? Russia? Okay, but the problem there is each time we sell a 35 to another country we hold more and more cards. Don't play nice and we won't give you any upgrades or spare parts.

It is like playing Risk. It is all strategy.

-- Edited by pima on Sunday 23rd of January 2011 11:32:47 AM

Abyss wrote:

---

 

Bullet wrote:

---

3rd world at developing their own technology, perhaps 2nd world when it comes to stealing the technology and intellectual property of others.

You can go on the internet, take a picture of an I-Phone 4, and make something that looks very similar to it (in fact, I bet China already does!). Doesn't mean it will work like an I-Phone 4

---

You do realize Toyota used to do the same as Chery does now, right?

Why do you think Chery will turn out differently from Toyota?

 

-- Edited by Abyss on Friday 21st of January 2011 07:15:52 PM

 

---

Most likely not.

But we're talking tactical fighters and aircraft carriers (which cost hundreds of millions of dollars each and takes leaps in technology to make them more capable than th eother guy's); not the family car (which takes better quality parts, with very minor technology to advance).

Let China make a nice new passenger van with plush seats and a built-in TV. Let them follow the Japanese model and learn that the consumer, when making a purchase that expensive, appreciates quality. 

oesn't mean a hill of beans in how capable their next fighter, or tank, or ship is....

 

Abyss wrote:

---

 

BigG wrote:

---

Anybody remember a war game conducted by our military pitting F-4's against F-16's?

(or something similiar)

The then top fighter could take out a lot of the obsolete airframes.

But $50,000,000 of old stuff beat $50,000,000 of leading edge at the expense of pilot suvivability.

I don't think China much cares about pilot survivability. They do kill several thousand  coal miners a year. This makes me think they are not even playing the same game we are.

A few obsolete weapons this decade becomes an inferior but numerous horde next decade followed by near parity and numerical superiority in less than 3 decades.  

Our leaders had better realize the Chinese are not our friends.

---

So, these airbases these F-22s are flying out from are invinceable as well?

China knows they can't beat an F-22 straight up. Their goal will be to push them out of theatre.

 

 

---

Ah, perhaps the first point you've made here with any merit. 

Preventing OUR ability to project power by denying us forward operating locations is perhaps the only way China can dictate conditions for a military confrontration against the US for the foreseeable future.

But an aircraft carrier, such as the one China refurbished mentioned in the OP, is not designed to deny forward presence; it's designed for Power Projection.  It would be just as vulnerable (actually, more) to methods for threatening its Power Projection capability by denying presence as our carriers.

Now, of course there are other methods to deny forward presence (China's anti-carrier ballistic missile being a perfect example).  Something we'll have to deal with.

But this all assummes one thing: any future confrontation would be fought close to China's borders.  The Pacific theatre is HUUUUUGE, and China's efforts to become a world power will dictate that they must have the ability to influence activity beyond their borders.  Their ability to do this militarily will remain challenged for quite a while....

 

Bullet wrote:

---

3rd world at developing their own technology, perhaps 2nd world when it comes to stealing the technology and intellectual property of others.

You can go on the internet, take a picture of an I-Phone 4, and make something that looks very similar to it (in fact, I bet China already does!). Doesn't mean it will work like an I-Phone 4

---

You do realize Toyota used to do the same as Chery does now, right?

Why do you think Chery will turn out differently from Toyota?

 

-- Edited by Abyss on Friday 21st of January 2011 07:15:52 PM

BigG wrote:

---

Anybody remember a war game conducted by our military pitting F-4's against F-16's?

(or something similiar)

The then top fighter could take out a lot of the obsolete airframes.

But $50,000,000 of old stuff beat $50,000,000 of leading edge at the expense of pilot suvivability.

I don't think China much cares about pilot survivability. They do kill several thousand  coal miners a year. This makes me think they are not even playing the same game we are.

A few obsolete weapons this decade becomes an inferior but numerous horde next decade followed by near parity and numerical superiority in less than 3 decades.  

Our leaders had better realize the Chinese are not our friends.

---

Used to participate in similar exercises flying my F-15Es against F-22s.

Went something like this:

1) "Fights On"
2) We drive toward where we think the F-22s were coming from for about a minute.
3) Hear a call on the radio: "All Eagles at Bullseye XXX/XXX are dead."
4) We turn around and start over.
5) Repeat until we run out fuel.
6) Return to base, debrief, and vow never to fly that type of sortie again because it was absolutely zero fun being spanked an entire sortie (and that is saying much coming from a guy who LOVED to fly).


I think the our code name for any potential air campaign against China is called: "Operation Clubbing Baby Seals". 

Don't really understand your point about pilot survivabilty, however.

And yes, our leaders do realize China's potential as a future threat, and pay me a decent salary to ensure the next generation of aircraft we operate remains about 25 years ahead of what they are just dreaming about...

 

-- Edited by Bullet on Friday 21st of January 2011 05:43:11 PM

3rd world at developing their own technology, perhaps 2nd world when it comes to stealing the technology and intellectual property of others.

You can go on the internet, take a picture of an I-Phone 4, and make something that looks very similar to it (in fact, I bet China already does!). Doesn't mean it will work like an I-Phone 4

Abyss wrote:

---

Bullet wrote:

---

This isn't exactly a Chinese "manufactured" piece of equipment. Russian designed and built (a long time ago), put into dry-dock to rot when they couldn't afford to operate it anymore, bought by the Chinese (the Ruskies were glad to dump it on them), and brought back into service by them.

Still a piece of crap, however. And pretty useless until the Chinese can actually operate any aircraft off of them.

China moving towards "power projection" capability is interesting however. Wonder where it's first operational cruise will head to?

-- Edited by Bullet on Thursday 20th of January 2011 05:07:02 AM

---

That stealth fighter a piece of crap too?

 

---

Yep.

25-year old design, with elements stolen from us and the Russians. 

And based on my security clearances and the concerns for OPSEC (Operational Security), that is about all I have to say on that.

 

heard some guy on WTOP (news radio in DC) who said that China had no interest in being a world power so we shouldn't worry. He was from some think tank.

I almost crashed my car when he said that.

Late to the party...

I remember when Japanese and Chinese manufactured goods were crap.