Political & Elections

BigG · Guru

RE: Why Maintain Relations with the Chinese AT ALL?

amazing · Veteran Member

BigG wrote:

A larger supply of goods and services is no good if the "average" citizen cannot afford them.

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:32:46 PM

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:34:49 PM

Well if a large supply of goods and services exist in the world, someone has to own them.

Are you saying that our current problem is one of distribution? Too many goods concentrated in too few hands (because thats what it sounds like you just said)? If this is the case, would you be in favor of more government policies that redistribute wealth, such as say letting the tax cuts on the wealthy expire?

poetgrl · Senior Member

Well, BigG, we don't really practice "free market" capitalism in the U.S, anyway. We practice a form of Oligarchical socialism whereby some very connected people are busy manipulating the FED and the government in order to get massive advantages over almost everyone else in the country.

Unfortunately, many of these same people, union executives, for one thing, do the exact same thing. The US worker has no real representation in the government, and if they needed any evidence, all they would have to do is to look at what happened once the financial markets began to fall apart.

Chris, if you are trying to tell me that we educate our exceptional students with the same dedication as countries like Germany or China, I would like you to show me how this works. By the time a kid is very young in these countries, they are "tracked."

I'm not even saying it is "better," I'm just saying it is so.

BigG · Guru

Regarding education in the US;
Public education at the primary and secondary level concentrates resources on the bottom third, not even on the "average" students.

Regarding "free markets";
There are NONE.
China has manipulated markets to serve their national interests.

We are in an economic WAR with China and need to act appropriately.

A larger supply of goods and services is no good if the "average" citizen cannot afford them.

Perhaps after white collar workers have experienced a few decades of the devastation experienced over the past 30 years by blue collar workers we will wake up and do something.

Oh! Wait! We won't have anything left to do anything with.

Let the "free market" captalists appeal to the standing committee of the Chinese Communist Party when their rights are infringed. That should work reeeeally weelll!

Of course the capitalists could appeal to "international law" to protect their rights. That is just as real as "free markets".

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:32:46 PM

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:34:49 PM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

poetgrl wrote:

nbachris2788 wrote:

poetgrl wrote:

American education suffers due to the very same egalitarian nature of what makes it great.

In the US anyone can get a college degree.

Do you really believe that this is going to produce a system where the most intelligent students are allocated the greatest resources? It does not.

In most places, teaching is done to the lowest common denominator, in the US.

In other countires, not so much.

Does this make us great? Does this make us not great?

No. It makes us different. Different can't be quantified by test scores.

I'd like to say that the way we currently teach in the US, what we should be looking at is how well our least gifted kids do against thier least gifted kids. Welcome to equality of opportunity. This is what it looks like.

I don't quite get the meaning of this statement. Countries that place a great emphasis on high-stakes exams for entrance into the most prestigious universities like Great Britain and Korea also have many universities where anyone can get a degree; they're just far less prestigious than the elite schools.

The emphasis in education in this country is on "everyone." The minute you have an educational system, from the kindergarten up, which empasizes getting "everyone" through, and you have a limited number of resources to do this, you automatically cut off the potential advancement of those at the very top.

The resources are concentrated on the 'average' student.

Until you have children in school, it is difficult to understand how truly frustrating this is. Just as we no longer want to believe in "American Exceptionalism," we do not put our resources into educating our more exceptional students.

This is why I say, we need to compare our least capable students to their least capable students in order to measure the efficacy of US education. The "mission" of our system is to make sure the least capable are as educated as the most capable, and not to make sure the exceptional student gets what he/she needs to truly excell.

It's a fact.

Mind providing some evidence for this so-called fact?

I'm pretty sure every country that participates in those rankings has compulsory education (aka "education for everybody") as well.

Maybe you're talking about the fact that some countries tend to sort out students quite early, either into continuing academics or pursuing vocational training. Japan, for example, has rigorous high school entrance exams that can determine one's education path. Is this what you're getting at?

poetgrl · Senior Member

nbachris2788 wrote:

poetgrl wrote:

American education suffers due to the very same egalitarian nature of what makes it great.

In the US anyone can get a college degree.

Do you really believe that this is going to produce a system where the most intelligent students are allocated the greatest resources? It does not.

In most places, teaching is done to the lowest common denominator, in the US.

In other countires, not so much.

Does this make us great? Does this make us not great?

No. It makes us different. Different can't be quantified by test scores.

I'd like to say that the way we currently teach in the US, what we should be looking at is how well our least gifted kids do against thier least gifted kids. Welcome to equality of opportunity. This is what it looks like.

I don't quite get the meaning of this statement. Countries that place a great emphasis on high-stakes exams for entrance into the most prestigious universities like Great Britain and Korea also have many universities where anyone can get a degree; they're just far less prestigious than the elite schools.

The emphasis in education in this country is on "everyone." The minute you have an educational system, from the kindergarten up, which empasizes getting "everyone" through, and you have a limited number of resources to do this, you automatically cut off the potential advancement of those at the very top.

The resources are concentrated on the 'average' student.

Until you have children in school, it is difficult to understand how truly frustrating this is. Just as we no longer want to believe in "American Exceptionalism," we do not put our resources into educating our more exceptional students.

This is why I say, we need to compare our least capable students to their least capable students in order to measure the efficacy of US education. The "mission" of our system is to make sure the least capable are as educated as the most capable, and not to make sure the exceptional student gets what he/she needs to truly excell.

It's a fact.

amazing · Veteran Member

BigG wrote:

Execute managers and capitalists that cost US citizens jobs. They are in fact guilty of treason.

The idea that anyone should be free to take the wealth that took generations to form and accumulate in this society and give its benefits to a foreign culture with antagonistic values is contra-survival for our country. If it weren't for the military service and labor of generations of US citizens, no one would have any rights to own wealth.

The profits from outsourcing have been largely chimerical. They certainly aren't evident in my stock portfolio.

The societal economic benefit of a "factory" goes far beyond the nominal "profits" of the operation. Loss of one high value addded manufacturing job leads to the loss of 6 to 8 other jobs in the surrounding area.

The "post industrial society" so beloved of the intelligenstia and the Ivy League elite caste is a loser for the vast mass of US citizens. We cannot all live by filling one another's teeth and sweeping out office towers.

Extream? Oh yes. Kill the basterds that damage America.

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:42:36 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:43:24 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:45:40 AM

Do you just not believe in the idea of comparative advantage?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage

How about the idea that a greater supply of labor is better for society as a whole? (which, in theory, could be used to create a greater supply of anything that uses labor as an input). Do you not think that more goods is better? If all of a sudden, by magic, the amount of work hours doubled (not people, work hours), would this be a good thing? How about if all of the goods in the world doubled (its magic, so bad things like pollution don't double, also presume we haven't reached a saturation point)?

How about free markets? Do you not believe in those either? Do you think that the central planning solution of picking and choosing what people are allowed to invest in is going to produce a better outcome for society as a whole than if we allowed people to invest freely via the price mechanism?

Also, which world do you like better: one in which every country only considers its own interests or one in which they consider the interests of society as a whole? (these are not going to be the same! Think prisoner's dilemma.) Which world is going to be a better one to live in?

Also, you seem to think that "intellectual" jobs aren't worth that much to society. If this is the case, then why don't their bosses, who are presumably profit maximizing pay them less? Or maybe you think they aren't worth that much because they are easy jobs to become qualified for. If it really is so easy, then why aren't people seeming how much money they are getting payed and entering the market (because its easy)?

-- Edited by amazing on Thursday 9th of December 2010 09:27:43 AM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

poetgrl wrote:

American education suffers due to the very same egalitarian nature of what makes it great.

In the US anyone can get a college degree.

Do you really believe that this is going to produce a system where the most intelligent students are allocated the greatest resources? It does not.

In most places, teaching is done to the lowest common denominator, in the US.

In other countires, not so much.

Does this make us great? Does this make us not great?

No. It makes us different. Different can't be quantified by test scores.

I'd like to say that the way we currently teach in the US, what we should be looking at is how well our least gifted kids do against thier least gifted kids. Welcome to equality of opportunity. This is what it looks like.

I don't quite get the meaning of this statement. Countries that place a great emphasis on high-stakes exams for entrance into the most prestigious universities like Great Britain and Korea also have many universities where anyone can get a degree; they're just far less prestigious than the elite schools.

poetgrl · Senior Member

-- Edited by poetgrl on Thursday 9th of December 2010 04:31:12 AM

BigG · Guru

Execute managers and capitalists that cost US citizens jobs. They are in fact guilty of treason.

The idea that anyone should be free to take the wealth that took generations to form and accumulate in this society and give its benefits to a foreign culture with antagonistic values is contra-survival for our country. If it weren't for the military service and labor of generations of US citizens, no one would have any rights to own wealth.

The profits from outsourcing have been largely chimerical. They certainly aren't evident in my stock portfolio.

The societal economic benefit of a "factory" goes far beyond the nominal "profits" of the operation. Loss of one high value addded manufacturing job leads to the loss of 6 to 8 other jobs in the surrounding area.

The "post industrial society" so beloved of the intelligenstia and the Ivy League elite caste is a loser for the vast mass of US citizens. We cannot all live by filling one another's teeth and sweeping out office towers.

Extream? Oh yes. Kill the basterds that damage America.

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:42:36 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:43:24 AM

-- Edited by BigG on Thursday 9th of December 2010 03:45:40 AM

poetgrl · Senior Member

I don't disagree with you BigG

So, what is the solution?

Abyss · Senior Member

amazing wrote:

Abyss wrote:

No, we should be looking at how our brightest compare to their brightest - as these are the people who are responsible for future economic growth. Singapore, a full country, had roughly ~30% of their population that scored at the 5/6 levels of proficiency on the math test (the two highest levels). The US only had 10% at those highest levels.

Effectively, our 90th percentile is their 70th.

Tick, tick, tick...how long until we are nothing...

-- Edited by Abyss on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 06:57:50 PM

Well if we are comparing our brightest to their brightest, I think we got that one covered. At least if you define "bright" as being capable of making a significant academic contribution to the human race. Which I think is a much better metric than how well one is able to score on some arbitrary test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_nob_pri_lau_percap-nobel-prize-laureates-per-capita

-- Edited by amazing on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:08:10 PM

-- Edited by amazing on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:09:09 PM

My bar for "bright" is merely 95th percentile. I couldn't care less about the top one-hundred-thousandth of a percentile.

And in 30 years our 95th percentile is going to be their 80th.

BigG · Guru

You are resting on past laurel(ate)s.

Prosperity for a society comes from what the middle four sigmas in terms of ability are able to produce and achieve.

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:13:24 PM

amazing · Veteran Member

Abyss wrote:

No, we should be looking at how our brightest compare to their brightest - as these are the people who are responsible for future economic growth. Singapore, a full country, had roughly ~30% of their population that scored at the 5/6 levels of proficiency on the math test (the two highest levels). The US only had 10% at those highest levels.

Effectively, our 90th percentile is their 70th.

Tick, tick, tick...how long until we are nothing...

-- Edited by Abyss on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 06:57:50 PM

Well if we are comparing our brightest to their brightest, I think we got that one covered. At least if you define "bright" as being capable of making a significant academic contribution to the human race. Which I think is a much better metric than how well one is able to score on some arbitrary test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_nob_pri_lau_percap-nobel-prize-laureates-per-capita

edit:

We could also look at a more recently created award such as the turing award.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_Award Notice how 75% of the people who got the award are from the US.

Even the Shaw Prize which is nicknamed the "Nobel of the East" is mostly US! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaw_Prize

-- Edited by amazing on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:22:30 PM

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

We are currently engaged in an economic WAR that will determine the best systems, of everything!!!

A free press, freedom to criticize the government, freedom for idiots to attend college, freedom to send capital that took generations to form to foreign societies with antagonistic sociocultural systems,etc., are all dear to me as an American.

But these things may not serve the national interest of avoiding long term subjugation and subsumation.

Epitaph for the United States; "They Got Stupid!"

The current conflict will also determine whether it is better to be "well rounded" or to have a laser like focus on ones vocation. Historically American education has produced a lot of creativity. As technology becomes more complex, will this continue to be the case?

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 06:57:03 PM

Idiocracy. Just learn to welcome it.

Abyss · Senior Member

poetgrl wrote:

American education suffers due to the very same egalitarian nature of what makes it great.

In the US anyone can get a college degree.

Do you really believe that this is going to produce a system where the most intelligent students are allocated the greatest resources? It does not.

In most places, teaching is done to the lowest common denominator, in the US.

In other countires, not so much.

Does this make us great? Does this make us not great?

No. It makes us different. Different can't be quantified by test scores.

I'd like to say that the way we currently teach in the US, what we should be looking at is how well our least gifted kids do against thier least gifted kids. Welcome to equality of opportunity. This is what it looks like.

No, we should be looking at how our brightest compare to their brightest - as these are the people who are responsible for future economic growth. Singapore, a full country, had roughly ~30% of their population that scored at the 5/6 levels of proficiency on the math test (the two highest levels). The US only had 10% at those highest levels.

Effectively, our 90th percentile is their 70th.

Tick, tick, tick...how long until we are nothing...

-- Edited by Abyss on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 06:57:50 PM

BigG · Guru

We are currently engaged in an economic WAR that will determine the best systems, of everything!!!

A free press, freedom to criticize the government, freedom for idiots to attend college, freedom to send capital that took generations to form to foreign societies with antagonistic sociocultural systems,etc., are all dear to me as an American.

But these things may not serve the national interest of avoiding long term subjugation and subsumation.

Epitaph for the United States; "They Got Stupid!"

The current conflict will also determine whether it is better to be "well rounded" or to have a laser like focus on ones vocation. Historically American education has produced a lot of creativity. As technology becomes more complex, will this continue to be the case?

-- Edited by BigG on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:02:24 PM

poetgrl · Senior Member

American education suffers due to the very same egalitarian nature of what makes it great.

In the US anyone can get a college degree.

Do you really believe that this is going to produce a system where the most intelligent students are allocated the greatest resources? It does not.

In most places, teaching is done to the lowest common denominator, in the US.

In other countires, not so much.

Does this make us great? Does this make us not great?

No. It makes us different. Different can't be quantified by test scores.

I'd like to say that the way we currently teach in the US, what we should be looking at is how well our least gifted kids do against thier least gifted kids. Welcome to equality of opportunity. This is what it looks like.

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

amazing wrote:

Mostly I'm refering to the National Higher Education Entrance Examination. AP exams are nothing. All they do is maybe get you out of taking a couple semester long classes.

In the US colleges don't just look at your SAT scores or even just your academics. They take into account a wide range of things, which results in more diverse, well-rounded students. Colleges in China pretty much only take into account the once a year college entrance exam. As a result, prior education is geared towards this one test that determines your future.

Yes, many schools in the US teach to the test to some degree, but the emphasis on test taking, in comparison, isn't even close.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/world/asia/13exam.html

-- Edited by amazing on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 03:57:40 PM

AP exams aren't just nothing. AP classes are now seen as a no-brainer pre-requisite to be taken in order for a student to be a competitive candidate for the top US colleges. AP classes take up the whole year, and are geared towards teaching to the exam administered by College Board.

The US system of college admissions (which is unique in the world, as even other Western countries rely solely on academic stats) may produce well-rounded students who are less stressed out, but it also has its drawbacks, namely in that American students are falling behind in many subject categories.

I have many criticisms of the East Asian style of education. What they do to kids there is abusive. But I am also highly critical of Americans who take this fact to automatically mean that American students and American education are superior and in no need of significant improvement. Also, I am highly critical of lazy arguments such as proclaiming the superiority of American students by pointing out the superiority of American universities.

Abyss · Senior Member

amazing wrote:

Abyss wrote:

Another dog bites man story in the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html

How is this surprising to anyone? A bunch of smart students (yes, genetically smart - as South Koreans & Japanese have proven to be able to compete economically for several decades) beat the crap out of the US, yet again.

Look, of COURSE Chinese students do better at standardized testing! Their entire educational system is based on improving test scores, whereas ours focuses on learning.

America's educational system really isn't that bad. There's a reason that our universities are the best - because in grade school we're teaching students how to learn instead of how to memorize.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but I have no desire for America's schools to be anything like Shanghai's.

Do people actually believe idiotic gibberish like this? The American university system doesn't even have a majority US students anymore in entire fields (look at an EE grad class at MIT or Cal lately?). Seems like this non-US trained students can compete pretty damn well.

amazing · Veteran Member

nbachris2788 wrote:

What exactly do you mean by the argument that the American education system promotes "learning"? Marginal schools have to teach to the test because of NCLB, and elite schools have to teach to the test because of AP exams.
And American schools are the best due to the world-class faculty they're able to attract as well as their huge endowments, not because of their American undergraduate population (which is indeed intelligent, for the most part, but not exceptional).

Mostly I'm refering to the National Higher Education Entrance Examination. AP exams are nothing. All they do is maybe get you out of taking a couple semester long classes.

In the US colleges don't just look at your SAT scores or even just your academics. They take into account a wide range of things, which results in more diverse, well-rounded students. Colleges in China pretty much only take into account the once a year college entrance exam. As a result, prior education is geared towards this one test that determines your future.

Yes, many schools in the US teach to the test to some degree, but the emphasis on test taking, in comparison, isn't even close.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/world/asia/13exam.html

-- Edited by amazing on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 03:57:40 PM

nbachris2788 · Senior Member

amazing wrote:

Abyss wrote:

Another dog bites man story in the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html

How is this surprising to anyone? A bunch of smart students (yes, genetically smart - as South Koreans & Japanese have proven to be able to compete economically for several decades) beat the crap out of the US, yet again.

Look, of COURSE Chinese students do better at standardized testing! Their entire educational system is based on improving test scores, whereas ours focuses on learning.

America's educational system really isn't that bad. There's a reason that our universities are the best - because in grade school we're teaching students how to learn instead of how to memorize.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but I have no desire for America's schools to be anything like Shanghai's.

What exactly do you mean by the argument that the American education system promotes "learning"? Marginal schools have to teach to the test because of NCLB, and elite schools have to teach to the test because of AP exams.

And American schools are the best due to the world-class faculty they're able to attract as well as their huge endowments, not because of their American undergraduate population (which is indeed intelligent, for the most part, but not exceptional).

amazing · Veteran Member

Abyss wrote:

Another dog bites man story in the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html

How is this surprising to anyone? A bunch of smart students (yes, genetically smart - as South Koreans & Japanese have proven to be able to compete economically for several decades) beat the crap out of the US, yet again.

Look, of COURSE Chinese students do better at standardized testing! Their entire educational system is based on improving test scores, whereas ours focuses on learning.

America's educational system really isn't that bad. There's a reason that our universities are the best - because in grade school we're teaching students how to learn instead of how to memorize.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but I have no desire for America's schools to be anything like Shanghai's.

Canuckguy · Veteran Member

Abyss wrote:

http://www.imo-official.org/year_country_r.aspx?year=2010

If you look at the history of Chinese performance in the IMO, you would see they rarely finish below 3rd place. Some years ago I remember them finishing at 8th place and it was a national scandal.

I am not just talking about IMO, they are like that at physics, chemistry, informatics, and what not. I remember during 08, while their athletes won the most gold medals, their academic athletes were cleaning up as well, failing to take first place only in biology.

A little while ago, I read somewhere that an 18 yr old Chinese kid won first place in a world computer hacking championship, beating guys with PHDs in computer science. When I start hearing about Chinese cyber attacks, you know what came across my mind, don't you.

I have learned to read some Chinese in college, and I enjoy her history and culture, but I am feeling uncomfortable nonetheless.

Abyss · Senior Member

soccerguy315 wrote:

why shouldn't their economy dwarf ours though? they have over a billion people... they are much further away from passing us on a per capita basis.

We agree.

My point, however, is that China is likely outperforming the US on a per student basis. That is something, over the long term, will yield to significant economic growth.

Technical superiority is what grows economies. It's worked for Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. These countries were dirt poor. They are not now. And they all got there by initially copying technology and then innovating on their own.

The only difference, of course, is that China does not like the US, and China has a much larger population for the US. This does not bode well for us.

soccerguy315 · Guru

why shouldn't their economy dwarf ours though? they have over a billion people... they are much further away from passing us on a per capita basis.

Abyss · Senior Member

soccerguy315 wrote:

China's economy will slow down when they actually have to innovate instead of stealing all of our stuff. It's a lot easier to build up when you can just steal what the other guy has.

That point will happen long after their economy dwarfs ours.

soccerguy315 · Guru

China's economy will slow down when they actually have to innovate instead of stealing all of our stuff. It's a lot easier to build up when you can just steal what the other guy has.

Abyss · Senior Member

BigG wrote:

I wonder what would happen if, instead of a "nationally represenative sample", we sent the best students from New York, Boston, or even "gasp" Northern Virginia?

http://www.imo-official.org/year_country_r.aspx?year=2010

You mean something like this?

We're toast bro, might as well simply give up now. Simply look at the play this thread has on the board.

People are too busy talking about Wikileaks & multicultural clubs to take a gander at the future irrelevance of the US economy in comparison to China.

-- Edited by Abyss on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 06:50:20 PM

BigG · Guru

I wonder what would happen if, instead of a "nationally represenative sample", we sent the best students from New York, Boston, or even "gasp" Northern Virginia?

Abyss · Senior Member

Another dog bites man story in the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html

How is this surprising to anyone? A bunch of smart students (yes, genetically smart - as South Koreans & Japanese have proven to be able to compete economically for several decades) beat the crap out of the US, yet again.

BigG · Guru

Too bad Americqns don't realize it isn't the absolute price but the price as a percentage of income that determines lifestyle quality.

$1.00/gallon gas is not a good deal if you are making $50.00/week.

$5.00/gallon gas is a good deal if you are making $1000.00/week.

The "race to the bottom" in wages and benefits is destroying the society for the majority of citizens.

Cheap is no good if you have no money.

soccerguy315 · Guru

BigG wrote:

A tariff is a good idea.

Other countries do not have our diversity of domestic resources.

Americans want the cheapest product... I don't think they give 2 ****s where it comes from. What elected official is going to stand up and say "vote for me, I support raising the prices at WALMART!"???

BigG · Guru

Actually my real views are imbedded in and amongst the extreamism to make them seem more reasonable.

amazing · Veteran Member

Wait, never mind, I thought you were being sarcastic. Usually when people refer to Jonathan Swift its a tip off that they aren't making a serious argument, as the original modest proposal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal was satire, it wasn't a real argument (in it he argued that in order to counteract overpopulation, people in ireland should eat their children, but it was a JOKE).

After reading this line that you posted in another thread:
"Isolationism and protectionism are the only hope for the average American citizen."

I am not entirely sure if you are serious or not. Next time, if you are making a serious/extreme argument DO NOT reference Johnathan Swift, as people who are familar with it will think that you are arguing an extreme point of view that you do not believe in so as to make a point.

BigG · Guru

One person seems to have "got" the Jonathan Swift allusion.

longprime · Guru

Because they keep Costco and Walmart in business.

China for 20,

Number 1 reason China will face a crisis in 5 years.

amazing · Veteran Member

"A few "modest proposals";"

I see what you did there.

BigG · Guru

A tariff is a good idea.

Other countries do not have our diversity of domestic resources.

Abyss · Senior Member

Most of those ideas have already been tried in other countries and have significant correlations with slower growth. I have only one major idea.

1) Tariff Chinese goods until they have a proper floating exchange rate.

BigG · Guru

We are getting no diplomatic help with North Korea;
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/world/asia/07china.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

What good are they to us? What is our interest in them?

The "relationship" seems very one-sided and exploitative to us.

China is looting and plundering our economy to the detriment of our citizens.

Maintaining the ability of a few "high rollers" to "wheel and deal" is causing the rest of the nation to become sunk in misery. What good has the financial interaction with the Chinese done for our corporate stock values? Where are the "big profits" from outsourcing?

A few "modest proposals";

Print money to pay off the national debt. Why pay interest on fiat money when we can print it and avoid a lien on our future? Surely no one would then loan money to the US government. But wouldn't that be a good thing?

Block foreign ownership of American property, including common stock.

Destroy the international monetary system that is not serving our needs.

Close the borders to anything other than legal immigration. Don't even encourage tourism.

Withdraw all troops from foreign territory and assign them to border security duties.

Spend what capital we have left to build US infrastructure and fund US industry. Don't allow US citizens to invest abroad.

Amend the tax code to allow 3 year depreciation on industrial facilities that accomplish coal liquification. Plans for working plants are available from Sasol. Or we can just use existing US technology. Oh yeah. Exempt dividends from coal liquification from all federal income taxes and liquid fuel from such from highway taxes.This alone would halt oil imports.

Try financial criminals in absentia and dispatch hunter killer teams to deal with them. This includes the Saudi "money men" of international terrorism.

Nuke anyone that does more than verbally protest.

Do what is best for the US. Be upfront and open that that is our policy. Don't take any crap.